hineman made a conscious decision when he decided to hold the hearings, he was going to challenge the expertise of the experts. so he was calculated in insisting that hearings were going to be a part of the investigative strategy. i think both to destabilize the idea of expertise coming from statisticians in washington but also to very legitimately and genuinely try to educate commissioners who hadn't grown up with the experiences of poverty. >> i guess my sense of this -- well, first of all, it agrees with yours, but a lot -- and a lot of these people are chosen for general wisdom. general sagacity. they have impressed other notables like themselves with this particular quality. not everyone has. i've looked at it in myself for years and years and always come up empty that way. and i suspect a lot of people who don't get appointed to presidential commissions are likewise lacking as i am and you phrased it very nicely, the kind of people to get appointed to presidential commissions are the kind of people who get appointed to presidential commissions. appointed to presidential commissi