and professor hochman. it's a history goes back probably a lot further than most people would think. you began the book with the story of dc williams. who's he? so williams was a stockbroker in the state of california who concocted somewhat elaborate scheme to. listen to corporate communications and, make insider trades based on the intelligence that he'd gathered. he turns out to be the first american ever for tapping a wire. and this was in the year 1864. and he was imprisoned or convicted a statute written in the state of california, 1862, which means that the practice of wiretap being and laws against it, prohibitions against it, date back all the way to the age of the telegraph. the age of the civil war. when i discovered this. eight years ago, i was stunned. i didn't know wiretapping went back that far and the book that i've written traces that history all the way back to the age of the telegraph up until our own digital age today, dc williams was literally tapping a telegraph wire. what does the term

i brian hochman, professor at georgetown university is the author and joining us. let me pause here and bring in some colors on this topic. anthony miller from new york, good morning, you're on with professor hochman. >> thank you professor for joining us, thank you to the moderator as well. perhaps you can both answer my question, if not today than it's a future segment says he's been would air. it's troubled me greatly ever since barack obama came into office, he was able to wipe clean a lawsuit that had been pending, believe it was hepa dig versus at&t and the nsa. the thought police have been a well oiled machine in this governmental apparatus since the beginning of time, they've only perfected it. when you consider the fact that mark kline was a whistleblower who came forward and exposed what the nsa had been doing by illegally wiretapping, they had set up a big brother machine, what they referred to it as. whereby they were allowed to go through everything you do. every keystroke, every phone conversation. it's hard for us as regular people to know exactly ho

it's at underscore hochman all right. hi and welcome to today's. so in less than an hour i'm going to give you the argument of book. i'm going to give you new way of thinking about american and american identity. let's start with the old way, which is what i call the standard story. the standard story tells. us american history starts in 1776 with the declaration of independence, the declaration articulates the fundamental american of equality with the startling new proposition that all men are created equal and the american patriots fight for that ideal and the revolution. they make it part of our higher law in the constitution written in 1787 and our since then has been a moral less steady progress towards realizing this ideal. now the standard story admits we've fallen short, but we're moving forward. and you can look at key moments in american history, where americans come together in the name of this ideal and it guides us forward. 1776 of course with the declaration 1863 with the gettysburg address. when lincoln tells us that america is dedic

the very first book that i had like but this woman in our lives like gail hochman, our agent who would you know we're not allowed that to happen. and so gail is always saying, why can't you be more like. that's not true. that's not true. look at scott. scott keeps her in the style which he's grown accustomed so she can do mercy jobs like taking me on is what it is, but but yeah, i think you know that it's once like that, like you were saying like that. i mean, you've always got to fight the the obvious repetition like that. but i think that also the other big element, i think also that obviously both of you guys have dealt with a great deal like is is the development of those characters and allowing those characters to continue to grow. and that's a dicey proposition. you know, on that tightrope because you are of monkeying with success at that point in time. you are kind of like changing the rules in the game a little bit. and some readers respond to that marvelously. thank goodness the majority do. but then there are some readers that don't you know, that want those same characters d