in holbrook's case larger than life. the flaws, what was it about him that in the end, you think kept him from realizing it. he really wanted to be secretary of state. imagine what happened between him and president obama. what was it about him. george: in 1996, had just achieved his greatest triumph which was the piece talk and bill clinton was reelected and had to decide who would replace warren christopher as an secretary of state. it came down to richard holbrook and madeleine albright. and clinton was actually leaning towards holbrook because he said he's brilliant. his right mind, he knows more. his relentless . hillary clinton wanted her husband to pick the first female secretary of state which went decisively. but in the end, clinton said to al gore, i don't think that holbrook has the self-awareness from incoming toxic for you and that was clinton's very shrewd analysis of holbrook's character. holbrook understood the person across the table brilliantly whether it was bill clinton or whoever. he did not know him

it would have been baker versus holbrooke. peter, pick up on george's and let me ask you, in the end richard holbrooke did not really know himself and does jim baker know him? >> great question for he is not reflective person and not an introspective guy and i loved doing his book because he was over also we live subject and george didn't. we got the chance to ask him all these questions and the truth is he's not somebody who will open up his psychological profile to you and really expose himself in that way but he is super disciplined but he did give us access to his papers in his papers aren't, again, like holbrooke's letters from vietnam and they weren't expressive in that way but there were clues here or there and one thought that was human was this tragedy we mentioned earlier were his first wife died from cancer in he gave us a letter that he -- >> i saw that. it was a stunning. >> he writes to his friend george bush and his friend george bush will move from house to the run for senate and trying to get baker to run for

everything the opposite of richard holbrook. think of a single move he's made that holbrook would have agreed with and vice versa. he would have been writing columns for the post and denouncing the isolationism of america first and talking about the importance of the transatlantic alliance and nato and our allies in asia. during the pandemic i think that he would have been a brilliant organizer of other countries to find a cooperative response. that is the kind of thing that he excelled at. he put hiv aid hiv-aids as an ie before the security council, so he understood the disease could be a threat to the national security, but i think that he wouldn't have known how to function, social media would have brought out the poorest qualities. the seducing of reporters that he excelled at that so easily done and matters so much anymore i think that it would have been inalienable for him had he felt as if the golden age was gone. >> he's watching closely what's going on. >> i think he finds the trump world maddening. he is tearing down

so holbrooke was forever trying to get to the top of a mountain.mountain climbing stories and always just falling short of the summit. i had this line about he got to the highest base camp imaginable, but he met every assault on the summit failed. and i think it's partly because history changed. he was not henry kissinger to answer that question, judy, he didn't have had a geostrategic mind. he was more of an operative. he was a guy that went in and got things done, especially in foreign countries, in bosnia, for example. and times change and holbrooke was not cut out to smoothly ride his way to the top. he want self-disciplined like baker as susan said. he was undisciplined. he was transparent. his appetites and insecurities were all on the surface. he thought he was playing people when in fact, they saw right through him and in the end, the relationship that failed him was the one with barack obama who he desperately want today work closely with him, obama never trusted and never liked him. and in the end holbrooke died to some degree of a broken

baker versus holbrooke so talk to you in the end of holbrooke to know himself does jim baker know himself? >> he is not a reflective person not introspective. i love doing this because we let the chance to ask him these questions. and then to open up that psychological profile and expose himself in that way. and from those in vietnam are not expressed that way and one of them was very human was this tragedy when his first wife died from cancer. he raises friend george bush senate and to get to one from the house see he explains why he will not make the campaign. he says the reason why is his wife is dying and even she doesn't know it. they haven't told her this is maybe back and the area where the husband was told and the wife wasn't. but he says they can do it because my wife is dying and i haven't told her or my kids and my mother. the one person he tells is george bush that is a friendship that is powerful and transformative. that is human and then to show up and also with another letter his dying wife ashley she does know she's dying and then 50 years later crying even to this day not

there's so much to say about richard holbrooke. his area was foreign-policy and understanding the world. people talk about what a brilliant, another version of henry kissinger. how did you see him in his take on the world as a diplomat and how did he combine that with getting things done in washington? >> so a few things. first of all there are some overlapping themes here between peter's book in mind. one is ambition that one is tennis. holbrooke played a ton of tennis and i've a feeling that he rose up through the hierarchy in saigon and then in washington by whipping people on the tennis court or by being so competitive they have to respect him. first it was anthony lake who was his close friend and his peer in the foreign service in saigon and it remained that way for 10 years and their friendship mysteriously disintegrated with great consequences for them and for u.s. foreign policy later when they were working together on bosnia under bill clinton. then he started playing tennis against westmoreland and maxwell taylor in saig

just tell me how you have tapped my region, holbrooke to be a u.s. special advisor on afghanistan in the end. a mention that of course he was one of the architects arguably of the war in yugoslavia where of course is the mists came to fight the sobs and then went into afghanistan. that's when i met him. in the end 1995, i was that directing a project at the council on foreign relations about what we called the the south balkans and i, thanks to holbrooke, i actually met slobodan milosevic our visits of serbia in 1905. and i also met the leaders of the course of our albanians and message only as on both sides. and i was in touch with holbrooke throughout occluding during the word caution and 1999. and so we had, we became friends at that time. and that's really what led to his death. his drafting me for this position, he was aware am i wrong to ask you in there? actually, his involvement in yugoslavia helped create the kind of islamism that led to the 911 attacks. i think it never occurred to him and never occurred to me because it's untrue. so there

well, holbrooke's what i called crazy. it was not what you are referring to, which is, which is a bunch of different policies which you are referring to as a destabilization of afghanistan. which some of them had better say, well, that was not their intention, but what i just said that it was crazy for holbrooke to think that he could effectively improve the performance of the government of afghanistan by promoting electoral competition against president public karzai. 2 selves, holbrooke, for instance, a very much agreed with my analysis of the drug policy and he led the effort to stop a crop eradication and move our drug policy efforts to alternative livelihoods and interdiction of traffickers instead. funny all, some of them more from dr. bonnet, reuben, after this short break the world is driven by a drunk person. who dares thinks only to ask now for the post mortem. how did you major political parties changed in this election cycle? joe biden, maintaining to already be condemned by the democratic coalition. is there s

selves not holbrooke. for instance, a very much agreed with my analysis of the drug policy and he led the effort to stop a crop eradication and move our drug policy efforts to alternative livelihoods and interdiction of traffickers instead. funny all some of them more from talk demonic . ruben. after this short break now in the post-mortem. how did you major political parties changed in this election cycle? joe biden, maintaining to already be condemned by the democratic coalition. is there such a thing as a true business? did he change the g.o.p.? or did g.o.p. change? just normal guy called a memory a little cruiser toward the city and you would need a new epoch times to lead you to surround us long in some of these, which you'll see in the local, which is based on what one would do. it means the course spits out a little digital ship to the of lucas, which you welcome, back. i'm still here with dr. bonnet, rubin, former senior advisor to the u.s., special representative for afghanistan and pakistan. and

it begins holbrooke, yes, i knew him as if you are about to hear a long yarn by some of the new holbrooke and that is the forsaken the entire book. it gave me a kind of freedom to do things that traditional biographies don't do, but always within the guidelines of the contract that the reader, which is that all has to be true. i tried to make it sound like just a great yarn that you want to sit down and here through a long night storytelling. >> you and i talked about this before but i think it succeeds just marvelously when we on the show together. it was great fun to talk about this. just one thing if i may that you say i think in the early pages which i thought about and which would be fun to talk about a little bit. i am paraphrasing, i didn't have a chance to look at this before we came on but you said something like only in fiction can ever really get to know a person deep inside. and i thought about that because jack kennedy, many people think, and maybe this is true, somewhat elusive. some people warmed me early on your never going to get close to the sky because of that nature th

the books include our man richard holbrook and at the end of the american century. to get out of the news for an hour and a half as we try to navigate one of the storm used years in our lives. i knew you as a vietnam expert but now something broad as an american expert and shares a lot of interest with me and foreign policy so it's great to talk about this completely engrossing biography of jfk. so, welcome, fred and welcome to the audience. i guess the first question is inevitable, but why another biography. there are a dozen. it takes a little bit to wade into the waters where so many others have gone and we thought we knew everything there was to know so why did you take this on? >> it is tremendous to be with you and have the opportunity to talk about this stuff. in a way our two most recent books mine is the beginning of the american century and yours is about the latter part but it's great to be on with you. i've been fascinated by john f. kennedy and the kennedys for a long time. i've written about it in other contexts and in particular, vietnam and it's stil

>> i had met and interacted with richard holbrook on several occasions during the course of his career which i can't there was an intimate, nor did i serve with him or work with him on any kind of projects but he was clearly a towering figure but also a tragic figure. it is one of the best biographies i have ever read, completely different style, not your usual biography which made it so imposing. i'm so taken with it i have given it away multiple times for people to read because i think it has a lot of lessons for people in the place where i work. a book i just read recently by sidney blumenthal, all the powers on earth. this is the pre-presidential history of abraham lincoln that so much more than that. it is a sociological, political, cultural history of the tomatoes years between 1856 and 1860, so much gets sandwiched into that four year period that made the civil war really inevitable. everything from stephen douglas to the kansas nebraska act, bloodied kansas, john brown's raids in lawrence kansas and ultimately harpers ferry. these are four important pivotal years that led to th

his nonfiction books include our man richard holbrook and the end of the american century, a finalist for the pulitzer prize. the unwinding: 30 years of americandecline which won a national book award . and blood of the liberals, he is also the author of two novels in theplay and the editor of the two-volume addition of theessays of george orwell . join me in welcoming our special guests . >> welcome everybody. i see there's at least a couple hundred of you which is fantastic . and it will be a privilege and a pleasure to talk to frederik logevall tonight and to get our heads out of the present and out of the news for an hour, hour and a half and into the past which is a great refuge as well as a guide for us as we try to navigate these stories in our lives. fred, i know you as the author of two essential books on the vietnam war and people i know who fought in vietnam, i asked them what are the books i have to read on the war when i was researching my biography who served in vietnam they said that's easy, choosing war and embers of war by the same guy, frederik logevall. so i knew yo

his nonfiction books include our man, richard holbrooke and the end of the american century a finalist for the pulitzer prize. the unwinding, 30 years of american decline which won a national book award, the assassins gate america in iraq and blood of the liberals. he is also the author of two novels and a play and the editor of a 2-volume edition of the essay of george orwell. please join me in welcoming our special guests. >> welcome everybody. i hear they are at least a couple hundred of you which is fantastic and it will be a privilege and a pleasure to talk to frederik logevall and get her head out of the presence and out of the news for an hour or an hour and a half and into the past which is a great refuge as well as a guide for us as we try to navigate one of the stormy his years in our lives. fred i know you as the author of the two essential books on the vietnam war and it's not just me saying that the people i know who fought in vietnam and served in vietnam when not i asked where the books i have to read on where when i was researching my biography of richard holbrooke who

i don't have with me because i went it out, biography by george packer called "our man: richard holbrooke and the end of the american century". unique. i never read a book like it. it is not a traditional biography. it mixes opinion with facts and friend knowledge he. it is not your traditional biography but is a powerful book about a man in washington who sacrificed almost everything for a mission to climb up that latter. talented, destroyed family relations, destroyed personal relationships, friendships that were long-standing and just consumed by ambition. he also had some accomplishments, the author the dayton accord that ended the balkan wars and when he died he was the special envoy for afghanistan and made great strides in trying to tee up that issue and get america to look at its involvement but at the end of the day a tragic figure in terms of what he was willing to do and it took a story about power in washington and a cautionary tale of what happens so really powerful biography i highly recommend. >> did you know him at all? >> i had met and interacted with him on several occas

another book, i don't have with me because i live it out but the biography of george packer, richard holbrook called our man. uni i've never read a book like it. it is not a traditional biography . it mixes in opinion with factsand chronology. it's not your traditional biography by any means, it's a powerful book . it's a powerful book about a man in washington who sacrificed only everything for this. to climb up that ladder. talented, but really destroyed family relations. destroyed personalrelations . and just consumed by ambition. now, he also had some accomplices . he was credited with being author of the biggest records headed to baltimore and be when he died, he was the special envoy for afghanistan and had really made great strides in trying to be up that issue and get america to look at its involvement but the end of today kind of a figure in terms of what he was willing to do and then almost a morality story about power in washington and cautionary tale what gets by so many powerful biography and i highly recommend it. >> did you know jim at all congressman . >> i had and with over o

>> i had met and interacted with richard holbrook on several occasions during the course of his career. i can't say i was an intimate nor did i served with him or work with him on any kind of object, but he was clearly a towering figure, but also i think in some ways the tragic figure. and anyway, i think it's one of the best biographies i've ever read and completely different style. not your usual biography which made it so engrossing. i'm so taken with it, i've given away multiple times for people to read because i think it's a lot of lessons for people in the place where i work. i just read recently by sidney blumenthal, all the powers of the earth and this is the three presidential history of abraham lincoln but it's so much more than that. it's really a sociological and political cultural history of the tumultuous years between 1856 and 1860, so much gets sandwiched into that 4 year period that made the civil war inevitable. everything from populist sovereignty from stephen douglas to the kansas nebraska act and bloodied kansas and john brown's raid in lawrence kansas and harpers

i love to his book on mutual book - - richard holbrooke about how badly we had misunderstood so many of the conflicts vietnam to iran to bosnia where the current situation. obviously human beings are terribly forward and diplomats as well as. suggesting is not much of a learning curve? >> i think the cia is much more capable today that was in 1979 and the was lots that went to the school as they did but white mail and deal for decades and diversity is a huge problem at the cia. i think historically over many decades have learned to understand other cultures that whack a see where is a part of that. and i think the cia has improved and many other ways. >> you have any questions to them in the chant and i will work on. mm that was the dni and the director of national intelligence the creation of post 9/11 reorganization the government is to enhance the intelligence and national security priorities and abilities of the country. it meant the intelligence community community of the world and understand to function before. what you make of that or other directors make of that? >> a funny s

and george packer, our nonfiction books, our man richard holbrook and the end of the american century. the unwinding, 30 years of american decline which won a national book award. and blood of the liberals. he is the author ten also the play and editor of the two volume edition of the essays of george orwell. please join me in welcoming our special guests. >> welcome, everybody, there's a couple hundred of you which is fantastic. it is a privilege and the pleasure to talk to frederik logevall and get our heads up the present and out of the news for an hour and a half, the great refuge as we try to navigate the storm used years. i know you as the author of two essential book from the vietnam war. people who farted vietnam war served in vietnam when i ask what books i have to read on the war, and and and i know you as a vietnam expert. as an america expert and someone who shares a lot with me in american history and foreign policy. we talk about your completely engrossing, the word david kennedy used, new biography of jfk. welcome, fred, welcome to the audience. the first question is in

we would have been smart enough to figure out what to do and i think i love his our man, richard holbrooky first lock by the way about just about the human, about how badly we have misunderstood so many of these complex things from vietnam to iran to nausea to our current situation. so we are obviously human beings who are terribly flawed and diplomats are as well. >> are you suggesting there's not much of a learning curve ? >> i think the cia is probably much more capable today and it was in 1979 . there's certainly a lot of ill effects to anybody who went to this school as i did but this sort of all white male and yale for decades. and there was diverse city was certainly a huge problem at the cia and i think it helps to blind the cia and in many ways i think we've been historically, there are many decades failed to understand these other cultures and lack of diversity was certainly a part of that.and that vastly improved now. and i think the cia has improved in many other ways to. >> interesting. i just want to tell anyone if you have any questions feel free to put them in the chat, th

i loved his book, our man come on richard holbrooke was my first boss by the way.bout come just about the human, just about how badly we have misunderstood so many of these conflicts from the vietnam to iran to bosnia to our current situation. we are obviously human beings who are terribly flawed in diplomats are as well. >> are you suggesting not much of a learning curve? >> well, i think the cia is probably much more capable today than it was in 1979. there was certainly a lot of -- no offense to anybody who went to the school as i did -- but it was considered all white male and yale for decades, and there was, diversity was certainly a huge problem at the cia. and i think it helped blind the cia many ways. i think we have been historically for many, many decades failed to understand these other cultures and lack of diversity certainly is a part of that. that's vastly improved now. i think the cia has improved in many other ways, , too. >> interesting. i just want to do either one if you have any questions feel free to put them in the chat, q&a, whichever you lik