then woman named holly paz and cindy thomas.heard some testimony about her yesterday, she is the supervisor of all these folks, one of them anyway, and they had her in all the interviews that the ig did of the low level people? >> unbelievable. >> yeah. holly paz was interviewed by committee staff. she indicated that the interviews that the inspector general did where he talked to folks trying to get to the bottom of this. she was present in those interviews. how do you get the truth when the supervisor is present with the folks trying to ask questions and get the truth from. so even ranking member cummings said you can't do that we are trying to investigate and get at the truth here. so, again, as i said, the more strings you pull, the more this thing falls apart. and it's -- it underscores how important this is and that we're gonna have to investigate. it may take a while. we're gonna have to get to the truth. >> if this holly paz answers to lois lerner who has taken the fifth. query whether these lower level employees are goi

they are low level figures, in washington, holly paz, liz hoffbaker and joseph herr are the five officials the house would like to hear from and have transcribed with the irs. >> i don't know if the president is coming up quickly here, one thing about all those individuals, you have to remember these are, in fact, criminal violation, very potentially and so i wouldn't be surprised, i might be surprised if they actually do testify. >> including the big shots, by the way. i want to go back to this other thing, this guy steve miller. >> it's a danger for the people who are named, or questioned. >> when those people go before darryl issa's committee, correct me if i'm wrong, they are under oath? they are under oath? >> are you right. >> therefore, there are crimm -- >> they can be, yeah. >> that's right. therefore, there are criminal consequences here if they say the wrong tooin thing. >> and oftentimes that's why you see people, not saying anything about these specific people, but just generally within have you these house hearings, you will often see people take the fifth before congress bec

holly paz, p-a-z. she was in all of the interviews of the treasury's inspector general of irs personnel. huh? what was she doing in all of the interviews. and, of course, this guy douglas schulman, i don't care if he's bush's guy or not. so far hasn't told us a single thing. he knew. this stuff has to be found. i like jennifer's point. in a sense, this is an institutional issue. if the irs stays rotten and political to the core, then its damage on the country, given its importance is just going to be gigantic. >> no question about it. an important question i want to hear answered -- i want to hear the national press ask this question. why while mr. schulman was in the white house over 100 times. i think in one story it's been documented. 118 times. and meanwhile, you had had the irs commissioner during george bush's presidency, was there once. who was he talking to? who in the obama campaign was he talking to? the three-most feared letters in the american dictionary are irs. and the average working peo

we learned a manager from washington, holly paz was in the -- many of the interviews that the ig didy about the targeting before it came out in the ig report. secondly the irs did an internal investigation about a year ago and found tluz there was targeting. the last year when they told congress nothing they had more information than they claim to have have had. >> looking at the "washington post" today this is where white house white house counsel comes in. she was given a thumbnail sketch of the findings that the irs improperly targeted tea party and conservative groups and shared it with dennis mcdonough , herod. and shared it with white house aides and they agreed it would be best not to show to it to president obama. this leads people to question what is going on and look at what she did and her job is to protect the president but ultimately did she? >> she will have to answer that question. she's one of the most tenacious litigators in the country. it is curious why it may have happened in that string of events are correct. i have no reason to believe they are not but we will h

located in cincinnati, there were a number of people a a director named holly paz, she was the acting director for a significant period of time this was occurring. there were various management technical units in the like.-- and the like. i can supply a full listing of those names at your request. >> that is my request. >> i want to make something clear in response to ms. black. when i had my discussions with the commissioner and the secretary and the general council, it was not to inform them of the results of the audit, it was to inform them that we were conducting the make thatst want to clear. >> when you had the conversation with the secretary, when did that occur? >> that happened shortly after he took office. it was after the policy had been stopped and the issues, we hope weolved.-- issues had been, hope, resolved. >> as a country lawyer from new york, you referenced the partisan issues, you said something i've seen many times, "at this time." that implies to me, there's addition allegations coming down the pipeline that could uncover information. is that correct? >> that is a