horizon.— can challenges to the integrity of i horizon.— can we horizon. yes, that's right.rizon. yes, that's right. can we please look at the _ horizon. yes, that's right. can we please look at the next _ horizon. yes, that's right. can we please look at the next poll. i horizon. yes, that's right. can we please look at the next poll. this | please look at the next poll. this is not long after. it is the 14th of june, 2010, and you are dealing with another case. this is the case of miss odl. that is the case you mentioned in your clarification earlier this morning. can we please look at the bottom of page two. we can see at the bottom, she says that your report says, throughout the interview, she blamed horizon for the losses and refused to make good the losses and refused to make good the audit shortage. if we turn to page five, the bottom of page five, please. you say, in my view, there is nothing —— sufficient evidence to prove that she, her son daniel or her husband have stolen any monies from the post office, although there are admissions that she has been failing to m

em in he development of horizon? not in the sli . htest, development of horizon? not in the slightest. n0- _ development of horizon? not in the slightest. no. it— development of horizon? not in the slightest, no. it would _ development of horizon? not in the slightest, no. it would be _ development of horizon? not in the slightest, no. it would be quite - slightest, no. it would be quite unusualfor slightest, no. it would be quite unusual for people to be taken back eight years or five years or whatever. i eight years or five years or whatever-— eight years or five years or whatever. ., ., ., ., whatever. i want to ask about the extent to which _ whatever. i want to ask about the extent to which any _ whatever. i want to ask about the extent to which any of _ whatever. i want to ask about the extent to which any of that - whatever. i want to ask about the extent to which any of that back | extent to which any of that back history— extent to which any of that back history was revealed to you. where you are _ history was revealed to you. where you are aware of the c

made, the confidence that was made, the confidence that horizon — was made, the confidence that horizonasn't at fault? no. other than that was _ horizon wasn't at fault? no. other than that was the _ horizon wasn't at fault? no. other than that was the understanding . than that was the understanding within the business. you than that was the understanding within the business.— than that was the understanding within the business. you refer in our within the business. you refer in your statement _ within the business. you refer in your statement to _ within the business. you refer in your statement to that, - within the business. you refer in your statement to that, that - within the business. you refer in your statement to that, that a l your statement to that, that a messaging coming from the business, the messaging from the post office, which _ the messaging from the post office, which a _ the messaging from the post office, which a person, which individual person— which a person, which individual person was_ which a person, which individual person was giving you that messaging is gold

would this be right, looking at horizon _ horizon.-end process involved? , ~ , :, involved? yes. as well as other post office accounting _ involved? yes. as well as other post office accounting procedures. i involved? yes. as well as other post office accounting procedures. one . involved? yes. as well as other post| office accounting procedures. one of the things i had raised and one of the things i had raised and one of the documents you have earlier shown me was the issue of the helpline, theissue me was the issue of the helpline, the issue of training, the issue of the issue of training, the issue of the contract and so, yes, to look into all of that. it the contract and so, yes, to look into all of that.— the contract and so, yes, to look into all of that. it seems there was an agreement _ into all of that. it seems there was an agreement to _ into all of that. it seems there was an agreement to have _ into all of that. it seems there was an agreement to have a _ into all of that. it seems there was an agreement to have a further

horizon? that is right. uc shortages- _ horizon? that is right. uc shortages. it _ horizon?ges. it was overs i horizon? that is right. uci shortages. it was overs and horizon? that is right. uc— shortages. it was overs and anders. surluses shortages. it was overs and anders. surpluses well? _ shortages. it was overs and anders. surpluses well? surpluses. - shortages. it was overs and anders. surpluses well? surpluses. did - shortages. it was overs and anders. surpluses well? surpluses. did you | surpluses well? surpluses. did you seek to discover _ surpluses well? surpluses. did you seek to discover the _ surpluses well? surpluses. did you seek to discover the cause - surpluses well? surpluses. did you seek to discover the cause of - surpluses well? surpluses. did you seek to discover the cause of the l seek to discover the cause of the surpluses and their shortages? yes. surpluses and their shortages? yes, as much as — surpluses and their shortages? yes, as much as we _ surpluses and their shortages? yes, as much as we could. _ surpluses and their shortages? yes, as much as

i think when horizon came — horizon it system? i think when horizon came in, _ horizon it system?ystem? i think when horizon came in, i was- horizon it system? i think when horizon came in, i was quite - horizon came in, i was quite positive _ horizon came in, i was quite positive about it because i knew what _ positive about it because i knew what technology in these sorts of systems — what technology in these sorts of systems could do. i was quite positive _ systems could do. i was quite positive. but i've found it a bit frustrating once the system was installed — frustrating once the system was installed and we were operating. i found _ installed and we were operating. i found there were many shortcomings in the _ found there were many shortcomings in the system. knowing what these systems _ in the system. knowing what these systems could do, itjust seemed a bit of— systems could do, itjust seemed a bit of a _ systems could do, itjust seemed a bit of a lost — systems could do, itjust seemed a bit of a lost opportunity. you systems could do, itjust seemed a bit of a lost opportu

that horizon wasn't at fault?n that was the understanding within the business. you than that was the understanding within the business.— than that was the understanding within the business. you refer in our within the business. you refer in your statement _ within the business. you refer in your statement to _ within the business. you refer in your statement to that, - within the business. you refer in your statement to that, that - within the business. you refer in your statement to that, that a l your statement to that, that a messaging coming from the business, the messaging from the post office, which _ the messaging from the post office, which a _ the messaging from the post office, which a person, which individual person— which a person, which individual person was— which a person, which individual person was giving you that messaging is gold _ person was giving you that messaging is gold there wasn't an individual person~ — is gold there wasn't an individual person i— is gold there wasn't an individual erso

_ discussion on the adequacy of legacy horizon? the mother of horizon that was running — horizon?he time? obviously, this was my first meeting but - was running at the time? obviously, this was my first meeting but by i was running at the time? obviously, this was my first meeting but by my| this was my first meeting but by my impression, was it was a level of contentment with the functionality of the system. but not its running cost and occasionally its availability, so i believe this next—generation proposal is about making it cheaper and faster to run. when you make it faster, you make it cheaper. and so the guarantee that was being given is that it wouldn't reduce the level of capability. there would be no point in making it run cheaper and faster if it meant being able to do less. mas run cheaper and faster if it meant being able to do less. was anyone on the board asking _ being able to do less. was anyone on the board asking questions _ being able to do less. was anyone on the board asking questions about i being able to do less. was anyone on the board asking questions abo

. it develop challenges to respond to horizon. ., ., ., ., horizon.t would have meant that we would have problems _ horizon. it would have meant that we would have problems that _ horizon. it would have meant that we would have problems that arise - horizon. it would have meant that we would have problems that arise in - would have problems that arise in that we _ would have problems that arise in that we were not aware of. can you exlain that we were not aware of. can you explain why — that we were not aware of. can you explain why you — that we were not aware of. can you explain why you want _ that we were not aware of. can you explain why you want aware - that we were not aware of. can you explain why you want aware of - that we were not aware of. can you | explain why you want aware of that. you might guess i think i can. despite efforts to understand and realise . . , despite efforts to understand and realise ., ., , ., despite efforts to understand and realise ., ., ., realise what was going on with horizon out — realise what was going on with h

that is an exoression _ horizon caused shortfalls? i _ horizon caused shortfalls? that is an expression i will— horizon caused shortfalls? that is an expression i will regret - horizon caused shortfalls? that is an expression i will regret for - horizon caused shortfalls? that is an expression i will regret for my| an expression i will regret for my life. there was an inappropriate thing to put in an e—mail, not in line with my view of sub—postmasters, but one of the often cited problems was, at this time, michael hodgkinson tore quite eloquently about the challenges that the post office had faced, financial challenges, and the danger is that we only think about the profit or not that post office limited were making. i hope we choose to say we don't have one bottom line here, we have 12,001 bottom lines and if the post office is working then it isn't working for sub—postmasters. they have probably got a job with the sub—post office in it, that sub—post office needs to produce enough properfor them to make it viable for them to have wo

for the horizon trial? yes.

with the horizon system this _ raise problems with the horizon system.are under your care. what do— system. this sub—postmasters who are under your care. what do you - system. this sub—postmasters who are under your care. what do you think- under your care. what do you think about_ under your care. what do you think about that? — about that? i_ about that? ithink- about that? i think that | about that? i i think that is about that? _ i think that is obviously about that? — i think that is obviously entirely wrong. i would have expected, i thought, and would have expected that when people raised issues, these would be openly and fairly looked at. i know from the evidence i have been sent that people sent letters which the post office team replied to. i always assume, because i do it myself, i wouldn't send or sign a letter that i didn't believe in, so i assume people would check those things out properly and i assumed they would handle those professionally and openly and ensure that any issues that were raised were investigated properly. you trobabl were

does that help identify faults in the horizon system? _ identify faults in the horizon s stem?i would have expected them to be escalated to _ system? no, i would have expected them to be escalated to the - system? no, i would have expected them to be escalated to the office i them to be escalated to the office in helping find the losses. that was what was going _ in helping find the losses. that was what was going on. _ in helping find the losses. that was what was going on. it _ in helping find the losses. that was what was going on. it was - in helping find the losses. that was what was going on. it was in - in helping find the losses. that was what was going on. it was in some | what was going on. it was in some cases, what was going on. it was in some cases. there _ what was going on. it was in some cases. there is _ what was going on. it was in some cases, there is evidence _ what was going on. it was in some cases, there is evidence of- what was going on. it was in some cases, there is evidence of people j cases, there is evidence of people getting help and assistance in

horizon i_ to try and manage problems around horizon.erence, i think in 2002, it was in llandudno, which is why i went to it. in llandudno, which is why i went to it there _ in llandudno, which is why i went to it. there were a whole host of people — it. there were a whole host of people raising queries about horizon during _ people raising queries about horizon during the _ people raising queries about horizon during the conference. and it got such— during the conference. and it got such a _ during the conference. and it got such a state that they couldn't move on and _ such a state that they couldn't move on and conference decided to set up a separate _ on and conference decided to set up a separate committee to look into horizon _ a separate committee to look into horizon issues, and for members to report— horizon issues, and for members to report to _ horizon issues, and for members to report to them. and they would then discuss _ report to them. and they would then discuss them with post office. two what extent _ discuss them with p

by the horizon system, do you mean tegacy— the horizon system, do you mean tegacy or~~~ — the horizon in terms of the legacy system, it would have been in use for many— system, it would have been in use for many years. i did not envisage there _ for many years. i did not envisage there will— for many years. i did not envisage there will be material problems with it at that _ there will be material problems with it at that point. in terms of the online — it at that point. in terms of the online system, i was aware that we would _ online system, i was aware that we would be _ online system, i was aware that we would be going through pilot very quickly— would be going through pilot very quickly into my ten year, as no doubt — quickly into my ten year, as no doubt we — quickly into my ten year, as no doubt we will discuss in a minute. i was aware — doubt we will discuss in a minute. i was aware that there were problems with freezing accounts, and it didn't— with freezing accounts, and it didn't strike me as particularly unusual— didn't strike me as particularly unusual with the new system

i wasn't 'ust talking about horizon i the horizon it system?orizon it system, - the horizon it system? i wasn'tjust talking about horizon it system, i l talking about horizon it system, i was talking about the business as a whole. my whole. my question is about horizon it system. my system. my primary focus was on the federation. i use the federation as the mouthpiece of the supposed matters to provide input, and then, on the staff there was someone that ran the crown offices, so i looked at federation crown offices and franchise branches. just so i have got this clear, during your period as managing director you had 250 or so but to badges themselves, and then in terms of further sub—postmaster feedback, that was effectively filtered through? that was effectively filtered throu t h? , ., , that was effectively filtered throuth? ,., , ., that was effectively filtered throuth? , ., , through? filtered sounds a bit harsh, through? filtered sounds a bit harsh. but _ through? filtered sounds a bit harsh, but yes. _ harsh, but yes. it came through n

it— development of horizon? not in the slightest, no. it would _ development of horizon?en back eight years or five years or whatever. i eight years or five years or whatever-— eight years or five years or whatever. ., ., ., ., whatever. i want to ask about the extent to which _ whatever. i want to ask about the extent to which any _ whatever. i want to ask about the extent to which any of _ whatever. i want to ask about the extent to which any of that i whatever. i want to ask about the extent to which any of that back | extent to which any of that back history— extent to which any of that back history was revealed to you. where you are _ history was revealed to you. where you are aware of the collapse of the contract _ you are aware of the collapse of the contract between the post office, icl, contract between the post office, ill. and _ contract between the post office, icl, and the benefits agency? no. that was a matter of quite some controversy in the late 90s, before you joined — controversy in the late 90s, before you joined at royal mail, that was something of whi

— horizon system? because the government _ horizon system?r, — think you followed this up with a chaser, if— think you followed this up with a chaser, if we look at page three of the pack— chaser, if we look at page three of the pack here, same clip. if we can expand _ the pack here, same clip. if we can expand that— the pack here, same clip. if we can expand that a little bit... we are now on— expand that a little bit... we are now on the — expand that a little bit... we are now on the 10th of december 2009. you write _ now on the 10th of december 2009. you write to — now on the 10th of december 2009. you write to lord mandelson again saying. _ you write to lord mandelson again saying. i— you write to lord mandelson again saying, i write further to my letter of the _ saying, i write further to my letter of the 3rd — saying, i write further to my letter of the 3rd of november, regarding correspondence received from david bristow _ correspondence received from david bristow i_ correspondence received from david bristow. i enclose a copy of my

working with horizon team. i don't recall the _ office. working with horizon team.office. working with horizon team. i don't recall the company secretary, l don't recall the company secretary, jonathan evans, who had responsibility for that area, talking about that at any of the holdings board meetings. that is a separate issue, mr crozier, whether he talked about it. what is it about the structure that did not help facilitate, as you see, information about the conduct of criminal proceedings, reaching the board of royal mail? i’m criminal proceedings, reaching the board of royal mail?— criminal proceedings, reaching the board of royal mail? i'm not sure i mentioned — board of royal mail? i'm not sure i mentioned anything _ board of royal mail? i'm not sure i mentioned anything specifically - mentioned anything specifically about structure. this sentence year on the screen. it is now clear to me that this structure did not have vital information regarding... conduct of criminal proceedings reaching me. what about the structure prevented information about criminal pr

has found _ case investigated where horizon has found to _ case investigated where horizon has foundsee if any of those three big claims— just to see if any of those three big claims appear in any of the briefing — big claims appear in any of the briefing notes that were distributed before _ briefing notes that were distributed before the meeting? so if we go to what paula — before the meeting? so if we go to what paula vennells has come every tone over— what paula vennells has come every tone over the page, what paula vennells has come every tone overthe page, on what paula vennells has come every tone over the page, on the side, please — tone over the page, on the side, please. confirm above postmasters are key— please. confirm above postmasters are key to — please. confirm above postmasters are key to our business, support our branches, _ are key to our business, support our branches, we — are key to our business, support our branches, we have a help desk, horizon — branches, we have a help desk, horizon is — branches, we have a help desk, horizon is used in branches to manage — h

. — that to notify them of issues with horizon, potential issues with horizon. _ horizon, potential issuesere are two parts to that _ their insurers? well. there are two parts to that answer _ their insurers? well. there are two parts to that answer and _ their insurers? well. there are two parts to that answer and the i their insurers? well. there are two parts to that answer and the first i parts to that answer and the first one, i think, parts to that answer and the first one, ithink, is parts to that answer and the first one, i think, is when a lot of people became aware of it which was, it was the overturning of convictions, over those cases, the appeal courts, that is one of the times it arose. but also, there is a similar reference that i have seen recently in a document disclosed to me for the hearing, and i'm trying to think of the date, it wasjuly... 2013? to think of the date, it was july. .. 2013? , to think of the date, it was july. .. 2013? . , ., ,., ., to think of the date, it was july. .. 2013? . , ., ., ., to think of the date, it was july. .. 2013? , , . . ., y 2013? thi

horizon field support team have confirmed that there is nothing inherently wrong with horizon system your branch, to your knowledge, reviewed and interrogated? fiat your branch, to your knowledge, reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware of- _ reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware of. they _ reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware of. they never _ reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware of. they never came - reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware of. they never came to l i am aware of. they never came to the piece — i am aware of. they never came to the piece i— i am aware of. they never came to the place. i have always been confused _ the place. i have always been confused over, nothing inherently wrong, _ confused over, nothing inherently wrong, that turn of phrase, itjust seems _ wrong, that turn of phrase, itjust seems a — wrong, that turn of phrase, itjust seems a little unusually. nothing wrong _ seems a little unusually. nothing wrong i_ seems a little unusually. nothing wrong i can understand.

when about the integrity of horizon. when you took_ about the integrity of horizon. when you took over responsibility for the contract _ you took over responsibility for the contract administration team, i became — contract administration team, i became aware of claims that the horizon — became aware of claims that the horizon system itself was generating discrepancies in branches. 0k? back to paragraph 29. at the foot of the pogo _ to paragraph 29. at the foot of the page. what did you mean by becoming, formerly— page. what did you mean by becoming, formerly aware? that was the first time i became aware. i was aware that people were claiming that there might be something wrong with the system but it was only when there were those bugs disclosed that i became aware of them. we bugs disclosed that i became aware of them. ~ ., ., ~' bugs disclosed that i became aware ofthem. ~ . . , . of them. we looked already at the december 2010 _ of them. we looked already at the december 2010 e-mail _ of them. we looked already at the december 2010 e-mail by - of them. we looked a

horizon...ust, to use the word horizon accounting system, you cannot be sure whether it hasn't. i thought it might have happened in some cases but to say that it happened in a lot of cases struck me as being needing to be examined and tested. find as being needing to be examined and tested. �* . ., , , ., tested. and then a fifth assertion, every case — tested. and then a fifth assertion, every case taken _ tested. and then a fifth assertion, every case taken to _ tested. and then a fifth assertion, every case taken to prosecution i tested. and then a fifth assertion, l every case taken to prosecution that involved the horizon system thus far has found in favour of the post office. we will come in a moment to look at that statement, which as i have said is not a true statement. or did you know whether it was true or false at this time? what or did you know whether it was true or false at this time?— or false at this time? what i knew about 10 hamilton _ or false at this time? what i knew about 10

, sorry, in horizon ontine, _ legacy horizon, sorry, in horizon online, when discrepancies were nrovedt. it appeared first in march 2010. _ account. it appeared first in march 2010, and — account. it appeared first in march 2010, and the majority of incidents occurred _ 2010, and the majority of incidents occurred between august and october 2010. _ occurred between august and october 2010, and _ occurred between august and october 2010, and the losses ranged from those _ 2010, and the losses ranged from those amounts identified by horizon's built and and could have been _ horizon's built and and could have been identified if the sub—postmaster had carefully scrutinised their final balance report~ — scrutinised their final balance report 17 _ scrutinised their final balance report. 17 branches were adversely affected _ report. 17 branches were adversely affected. sub—postmasters were affected. sub— postmasters were notified — affected. sub—postmasters were notified in march 2011, and were appropriately reimbursed. they were not asked _ appropriately reimbursed. they were not asked to re

i only started — fujitsu or horizon issues. i only started to — fujitsu or horizon issues.ere _ started to get involved in... so, there was— started to get involved in... so, there was the tracey marshall e—mail that was— there was the tracey marshall e—mail that was in_ there was the tracey marshall e—mail that was in advance of the meeting i attended. _ that was in advance of the meeting i attended, and again that was just that was in advance of the meeting i attended, and again that wasjust me coming _ attended, and again that wasjust me coming into— attended, and again that wasjust me coming into that because my boss at the time _ coming into that because my boss at the time was out on holiday. then we came _ the time was out on holiday. then we came into _ the time was out on holiday. then we came into the shoesmith's letters about— came into the shoesmith's letters about the — came into the shoesmith's letters about the individual branches. this wasn't _ about the individual branches. this wasn't my— about the individual branches. this wasn't my domain at all. but abo

any form of- audit of the horizon system. i don't think i audit of the horizon system. i don't think i am. are you _ audit of the horizon system. i don't think i am. are you aware - audit of the horizon system. i don't think i am. are you aware of- audit of the horizon system. i don't think i am. are you aware of any i think i am. are you aware of any form of external— think i am. are you aware of any form of external audit _ think i am. are you aware of any form of external audit or- think i am. are you aware of any form of external audit or review| think i am. are you aware of any l form of external audit or review of the post office's prosecutorial function? i the post office's prosecutorial function? ., �* , the post office's prosecutorial l function?_ are function? i don't believe so. are ou function? i don't believe so. are you aware _ function? i don't believe so. are you aware of— function? i don't believe so. are you aware of any _ function? i don't believe so. are you aware of any internal- function? i don't believe so. are you aware of any internal audit i fu

potential horizon integrity issues i potential horizon integrity issues should _ potential horizon integrityzon integrity issues should have been named - potential horizon integrity issues should have been named on- potential horizon integrity issues should have been named on to l potential horizon integrity issues l should have been named on to the defence _ i have to lie to my eldest son, that mum is pregnant. that's why she is special hospital. and i refuse to go out because i'm really blessed and really proud of my family. i didn't want her to know that i'm related to them. each and every person is responsible for the scandal. the government which play a vital part imposing the horizon under the post office. each and every official, either how big or small they were, which was a part of the scandal. we need to put them behind the bar to prove that system does work in the country. nobody can take law in their own hand like the post office did. what so many victims have been saying is that they want accountability and they want to see people responsible face prosecution. but that does not

— of systemic faults and failures in the horizon system? well, we are auoin the horizon system? well, we are going back now to controlling the | going back now to controlling the narrative — going back now to controlling the narrative and that was the first time _ narrative and that was the first time post— narrative and that was the first time post office lost control of the narrative, — time post office lost control of the narrative, once we got into the high court _ narrative, once we got into the high court so. _ narrative, once we got into the high court. 50, yes, that's when the truth _ court. 50, yes, that's when the truth started to come out, at that point _ truth started to come out, at that oint. . , ., truth started to come out, at that oint. . i. ., , truth started to come out, at that oint. . ., , , ., point. had you months before then, months before _ point. had you months before then, months before the _ point. had you months before then, months before the 8th _ point. had you months before then, months before the 8th of _ point. had you months before then, months

hat that trial as a test of horizon? not as a test of _ that trial as a test of horizon?propriate to do so, like all— it if it was appropriate to do so, like all other cases. let�*s cross to our correspondent at the hearings — azadeh moshiri. the details of the case of seema misra really have been extraordinary. it misra really have been extraordinary.- misra really have been extraordinary. it is worth remembering _ extraordinary. it is worth remembering because i extraordinary. it is worth remembering because it| extraordinary. it is worth i remembering because it is extraordinary. it is worth - remembering because it is such an example of why this is seen as the biggest miscarriage ofjustice in uk history. seema misra in 2010 it was eight weeks pregnant when she was sent to jail and she was sentenced to 15 months�* time in prison and that was on the day of her son�*s tenth birthday. she said to the bbc previously that had she not been pregnant at the time, because of the ordeal she would have killed herself and her husband said he was beaten up and her husband said he w

mr gillibrand, no. the horizon system? mr gillibrand, no~ over— the horizon system? page. he says, yes, you can. mr_ no. overthe page. he says, yes, you can. mr gillibrand says, no, we can't _ can. mr gillibrand says, no, we can't no, _ can. mr gillibrand says, no, we can't. no, we can't. then you see, nobody— can't. no, we can't. then you see, nobody in _ can't. no, we can't. then you see, nobody in the — can't. no, we can't. then you see, nobody in the post office can get into the — nobody in the post office can get into the system. anything you have seen on _ into the system. anything you have seen on the — into the system. anything you have seen on the screen has been logged against _ seen on the screen has been logged against the user. locking in on the system _ against the user. locking in on the system against a password. but only that individuals should have that. we don't — that individuals should have that. we don't want to know what passwords are, so _ we don't want to know what passwords are, so we _ we don't want to know what passwords are, so we cannot

and it couldn't be accessed ljy horizon and it couldn't be accessed by technological back doors.iry live on the bbc website. now the weather. hello. it was quite a chilly start to the day, particularly for central and southern parts of the uk under those clear skies. but we had a touch of frost around. but rain has been moving in from the north and really for the rest of the day it's going to be fairly damp across the northern half of the uk, whereas sunny spells will hold on longest in the south. now there's high pressure not far away, sitting out towards the west here. but we've got a weather front that's just toppling around the northern side of that high pressure. so it's bringing the cloud and rain to much of scotland, a few splashes of rain from northern ireland, but that's tending to dry out a little bit. northern england, north wales also turning fairly wet through the afternoon, whereas further south across england and wales you're more likely to stay dry. some sunshine lifting temperatures to around 15 degrees in london. so a little bit warmer than recent days, but stil

_ development, and the role of horizon? yes. you lived through the roll-out _ horizon? yes.gramme? do you not remember the _ sorry, the impact programme? do you not remember the impact _ sorry, the impact programme? do you | not remember the impact programme? no. 1: z: not remember the impact programme? no. :: :: i am not remember the impact programme? no-- i am not _ not remember the impact programme? no. 2005. i am not familiar with that. do no. 2005. i am not familiar with that- do you _ no. 2005. i am not familiar with that. do you accept _ no. 2005. i am not familiar with that. do you accept that - no. 2005. i am not familiar with that. do you accept that you - no. 2005. i am not familiar with l that. do you accept that you lived throu . h that. do you accept that you lived through the _ that. do you accept that you lived through the move _ that. do you accept that you lived through the move to _ that. do you accept that you lived through the move to horizon - that. do you accept that you lived i through the move to horizon online in 2010? _ through the move to horizon

horizon can you remember what ha--ened horizon can you remember what happened as _ horizon can you rememberd as a horizon can you remember what ha ened as a result of this? horizon can you remember what happened as a horizon can you remember what ha ened as a result of this? it happened as a result of this? depends happened as a result of this? it depends where it drops into the chronology of the other issues, unfortunately. i do not clearly remember off the top of my head. if we look at the top of the page we can see that paula vennells assistant asks the company secretary to draft some words. can you recall whether this resulted in a meeting? we didn't have a meeting with —— we did have _ we didn't have a meeting with —— we did have a _ we didn't have a meeting with —— we did have a meeting with her, i remember— did have a meeting with her, i remember a did have a meeting with her, i remembera meeting. did have a meeting with her, i remember a meeting. gne did have a meeting with her, i remember a meeting.- did have a meeting with her, i remember a meeting. one of the covert recordings _

this is a presentation on horizon integrity prepared by dave smith. undated and it seeks to tell a story about the integrity of horizon. we may find it any interesting account overall, i just want to look at what it says about you on page six. scroll down, please. mr smith says that of the cases that i am aware, eight had discrepancies which were dismissed because he became unmanageable. was not to you? h0. because he became unmanageable. was not to ou? ., ., ., because he became unmanageable. was not to you?_ he _ because he became unmanageable. was not to you?_ he then - not to you? no, not all. he then sa s not to you? no, not all. he then says that — not to you? no, not all. he then says that you — not to you? no, not all. he then says that you clearly _ not to you? no, not all. he then says that you clearly struggled l not to you? no, not all. he then i says that you clearly struggled with accounting and despite copious support, did not follow instructions. firstly, did you struggle with accounting? h0. instructions. firstly, did you struggle wit

when you took— about the integrity of horizon.sponsibility for the contract administration team, i became — contract administration team, i became aware of claims that the horizon — became aware of claims that the horizon system itself was generating discrepancies in branches. 0k? back to paragraph 29. at the foot of the page _ to paragraph 29. at the foot of the page. what did you mean by becoming, formerly— page. what did you mean by becoming, formerly aware? that was the first time i became aware. i was aware that people were claiming that there might be something wrong with the system but it was only when there were those bugs disclosed that i became aware of them. we bugs disclosed that i became aware of them. ~ ., ., ~' bugs disclosed that i became aware ofthem. ~ ., ., , .,

— which was early in the pilot for horizon a _ which was early in the pilot for horizon.undertaken to look into this access~~~ _ undertaken to look into this access... sorry, look into this across— access... sorry, look into this across the _ access... sorry, look into this across the lifetime of use. this would — across the lifetime of use. this would be — across the lifetime of use. this would be a _ across the lifetime of use. this would be a significant, complex process— would be a significant, complex process to undertake. and discussed previously— process to undertake. and discussed previously with post office, but discounted as to costly and impractical. then he gives a series of answers— impractical. then he gives a series of answers that i won't read out to mr williams' questions. then can we gom _ mr williams' questions. then can we gom for— mr williams' questions. then can we gom for we — mr williams' questions. then can we go... forwe move on from mr williams' questions. then can we go... for we move on from that, you agree _ go... for we move on from that, yo

imagine the harm we are doing. _ horizon system. imagine the harm we are doing. to— horizon system.gine the harm we are doing, to families, the mental heatth— are doing, to families, the mental health of— are doing, to families, the mental health of our sub—postmasters, the people _ health of our sub—postmasters, the people working those branches. we don't _ people working those branches. we don't anything like that in relation to these _ don't anything like that in relation to these rumblings you are talking about, _ to these rumblings you are talking about, going on at that time. is that because the culture of the post office _ that because the culture of the post office was _ that because the culture of the post office was all about the post office brand _ office was all about the post office brand and — office was all about the post office brand and damn the sub—postmasters? no. brand and damn the sub—postmasters? no what— brand and damn the sub—postmasters? no. what other explanation is that when _ no. what other explanation is that when we _ no. what other explanation is that

this is a publication which started investigating the horizon system and was exposing faults in the horizonersisted with the idea that there were no faults with horizon system, as a result several hundred postmasters and post—mistresses were prosecuted. a lot of discussion as to the role of the post office, notably alan cook at the very beginning said that he was not aware that there post office was taking initiative. he thought that this was external, it was crown prosecution service. in fact, two thirds of the cases were initiated by the post office and pursued by the post office. that must have been some legal team within the post office, in order to achieve that. he emphasised that the legal team was not purely devoted towards doing that, and he made that point several times in his defence. he did however apologise. he was presented with two former workers who had been prosecuted, both ladies in fact, who had spent time in prison, wrongly accused and wrongly convicted, and he apologised to both of them. to go he has been appearing in the horizon scandal inquiry. some of the main point i

we had double problems with the it horizon system yesterday as it was introduced in 1999.ly. he said he regretted not doing more to address the issues. between 1999 and 2015 the issues. between 1999 and 2015 the post office prosecuted 700 people due to the faulty horizon it system. some were convicted and sent to prison while many others were left financially ruined and lost theirjobs, businesses and jobs. let's cross live to the inquiry. welcome, take us through the background to what we will hear about today. background to what we will hear about today-— background to what we will hear about toda . ., ,., . ~ ,., about today. one of the back part of the scandal — about today. one of the back part of the scandal has _ about today. one of the back part of the scandal has been _ about today. one of the back part of the scandal has been the _ about today. one of the back part of the scandal has been the conduct i about today. one of the back part of the scandal has been the conduct of| the scandal has been the conduct of investigators. we have heard concerns from victims in

you have been watching the post office horizon it inquiry. this is our bbc news coverage.hnot. he is a tory peer but he was a conservative mp and has been campaigning alongside the victims for more than 1a years. he has been detailing his correspondence with the government, the post office and the government, the post office and the royal mail because those conversations are crucial to understanding how what is widely seen as one of the biggest miscarriages ofjustice in the uk could have possibly happened and who knew what and when. it is worth picking out some of these key moments and he has talked about the former chief executive of the royal mail paula vennells. loss of sound. the office they have a problem with the sound from that inquiry. as you can see, you've been in getting audio of evidence from lord arbuthnot. all you have to do is scan a qr code you can see on the screen at the moment for more on this on the bbc iplayer and you can pick up all of the latest from the inquiry and indeed we also have a special bbc news life page up and running which you will find b

was instead _ deeper into horizon. i don't think there was. was instead the - deeper into horizon.stead the first | there was. was instead the first riori to there was. was instead the first priority to be — there was. was instead the first priority to be damage _ there was. was instead the first priority to be damage limitation i there was. was instead the first - priority to be damage limitation and reputational management? | priority to be damage limitation and reputational management?- reputational management? i don't think it was _ reputational management? i don't think it was as _ reputational management? i don't think it was as stark _ reputational management? i don't think it was as stark as _ reputational management? i don't think it was as stark as that. - think it was as stark as that. protect the brand at all costs? he. protect the brand at all costs? no, that wasn't — protect the brand at all costs? no, that wasn't my _ protect the brand at all costs? iifr, that wasn't my sense at the time. my sense was this was the precursor to the scheme. this was almost, well, it wa

of which 85 related to horizon and — correct.zon and balancing - correct. of which 85 related to l horizon and balancing problems. correct. of which 85 related to - horizon and balancing problems. yes. and that you — horizon and balancing problems. yes. and that you found _ horizon and balancing problems. yes. and that you found the helpline to be ineffective and indeed of no help. be ineffective and indeed of no hel. , . ,., be ineffective and indeed of no hel. , . ., ., help. very much so, and often we never bothered _ help. very much so, and often we never bothered ringing _ help. very much so, and often we never bothered ringing it. - help. very much so, and often we never bothered ringing it. alan i never bothered ringing it. alan bates was _ never bothered ringing it. alan bates was forced _ never bothered ringing it. alan bates was forced to _ never bothered ringing it. risky bates was forced to give up being a subpostmaster and lost his life savings after being falsely accused of stealing £1000. over the next couple of mo

software but he actually worked in a case were challenged to the integrity of horizon was the thingd as you say that he did not consider reports of horizon problems in one case is being particularly relevant to another case but today seem to change his tune. the thinking at the time was only cases where it had been identified needed to be disclosed. but i can see what you're saying now that yes, this should have been mentioned or presented to the defence so that obviously they could make their own inquiries or representations about this. and simon we are also hearing today that post office chief executive nick read has been "exonerated of all misconduct allegations" following a report into his behaviour. yes, this is not connected to this inquiry on the horizon problems but more bad around the break—up of whether the post office had been instructed by the government to go slow on payments, something the government denied and there was a furious row with the chief executive and in that row it emerged that the conduct of nick reed was being investigated internally with some allegation

mr miller told the inquiry he had not read a damaging expert report about the horizon system.o question mr miller's honesty during his testimony. he comes to you with a report that he is knocking and you are hearing something going on in the background from the post office knocking this report and you decide not to read it. is that what you're saying, mr miller? i it. is that what you're saying, mr miller? �* ., it. is that what you're saying, mr miller? �* . ., miller? i didn't read it. i made it very clear— miller? i didn't read it. i made it very clear to _ miller? i didn't read it. i made it very clear to this _ miller? i didn't read it. i made it very clear to this inquiry - miller? i didn't read it. i made it very clear to this inquiry that i i very clear to this inquiry that i did not— very clear to this inquiry that i did not read it and it's a matter of some _ did not read it and it's a matter of some regret to meet. one did not read it and it's a matter of some regret to meet.— some regret to meet. one of two thins some regret to meet. one of two things arise — some

fascinating issue, thank ou on the horizon. fascinating issue, thank you very — on the horizon.uch for coming l on the horizon. fascinating issue, | thank you very much for coming on the programme. let's head to those protests you've seenin let's head to those protests you've seen in new york, the speaker of the house is due to visit there right about now. let's take a look at these pro—palestinian speakers having their say. more than 100 students were arrested last week, talks between university officials and students are taking place today, wednesday. newell mcgovern is in new york, i spoke to herjust a little earlier. york, i spoke to her 'ust a little earlier. �* ., , ., ., earlier. behind me as one of the elite colleges, _ earlier. behind me as one of the elite colleges, and _ earlier. behind me as one of the elite colleges, and ivy _ earlier. behind me as one of the elite colleges, and ivy league i elite colleges, and ivy league couege elite colleges, and ivy league college where protests have been taking place since october 7th. you mentioned of course over the past week

talk us through for --eole horizon it system. talk us through for people who _ horizon it system.inquiry has, if any, tell us how many powers the inquiry has, ifany, to tell us how many powers the inquiry has, if any, to right these wrongs in the long run?— in the long run? writing these wronus in the long run? writing these wrongs is _ in the long run? writing these wrongs is a — in the long run? writing these wrongs is a bit of a _ in the long run? writing these wrongs is a bit of a difficult i wrongs is a bit of a difficult sentence, even when it comes to the idea of compensations and the word even compensation doesn't cut it as they will never get those years back and they will never recoup the impact this has had on their health, nor return some of the loved ones they have lost from this. some of they have lost from this. some of the children were even bullied because the community is turned on them at times. in terms of the inquiry itself, it is trying to understand how what has been called the worst miscarriage ofjustice in uk history could have possibly happened and it has

the post office inquiry has been told that challenges to the horizon it system in separate cases wereman, who investigated post office employees for more than a decade, said he believed the horizon system was robust. watching on at the inquiry was a former submistress who was wrongly sent to jail when she was pregnant as a result of his report. here's our business editor, simonjack seema misra was pregnant with her second child when she was convicted and jailed in 2010 for a crime she didn't commit. her conviction was overturned, but nearly 15 years later, the scars, the stigma of that experience are still raw. i have to lie to my eldest son — that mum is pregnant, that's why she's going to the special hospital. her parents in india were never told and died without knowing of her ordeal. i knew if i tell them i've been to prison, that's it, i will lose them. so, i lost both of them before my conviction was overturned. i swear by almighty god... the investigator on seema's case originally said he didn't know of other complaints about the horizon software system, but today admitted he d

i’d the horizon system was robust. today, he had this apology.s apology. i'd like to place on record _ today, he had this apology. i'd like to place on record an _ today, he had this apology. i'd like to place on record an apology - today, he had this apology. i'd like to place on record an apology to i to place on record an apology to seema — to place on record an apology to seema misra and her family, looking at it through their eyes rather than mine _ at it through their eyes rather than mine you _ at it through their eyes rather than mine you can see it may have caused substantial _ mine you can see it may have caused substantial upset and i really do apologise for that.— substantial upset and i really do apologise for that. now, that was, she was convicted _ apologise for that. now, that was, she was convicted in _ apologise for that. now, that was, she was convicted in 2010, - apologise for that. now, that was, she was convicted in 2010, it - apologise for that. now, that was, she was convicted in 2010, it was. she was convicted in 2010, it