podcast of the creative industry on the first channel in the lineup, podcast, paws our guest today igor chipurinna cyprus producer producer and eklipeikin director of the presidential fund in cultural initiatives. i recently uh talked to a person who represents industrial design. and so we talked with him about the state. strictly speaking industrial design. and i asked him to draw me, so to speak, here is a diagram and indicate where we are generally speaking, he drew such a ladder, and so somewhere below, so that's it. well, we poked here, how did it happen. we have wonderful traditions of industrial design, generally speaking soviet. uh, how did we end up in this situations that, because the design we have is again at the point, so to speak, in the very initial development. i think that, probably, it was design in the days of the soviet union. as such, probably not actively developed. and there really was no effort, but to do something individually. i even remember the technology textbook when i was studying, the first line was that we differ in that it enslaves individuality there. but as if