i'm an incarcerated guy. incarceration was not the same as rehabilitation for me. it just wasn't the same. but i have been over 500 jails and prisons in 23 years. i speak nine languages now. they're all english, but i speak fortune 500. i speak corporate, i speak kid. i have a 5-year-old. he is safe all day in the home that i have created, not the one i grew up in. my wife is an afflicted convicted lady. she actually did more jail time than i did she has seniority at home. [laughter] >> normal people don't laugh right there at all. don't the wives only have seniority? yes, especially in the penal system. but that was a double-edged sword there, i hope you got it. some of your pot smokers or ex-pot smokers, the jokes won't kick in for a long time. marijuana retards the ha ha muscle. three months from now somebody will go they're all different dads. sorry, your honor, i apologize, i wasn't laughing at you. [laughter] >> the concept here of humor as a basis for approaching a topic that is awkward to discuss has never been a mystery to us. the art of that is sometimes

incarceration is very expensive for the average cost for incarcerating someone in a prison is between 18-$30,000 a year. when you have the kinds of numbers you do, and i talked about the amount of money that corrections is taking up in a state budget, that's a significant amount of money. what that's done is to open up the door for new allies, allies that frankly are far more influential in a certain sense, tough on crime, folks are now talking of criminal justice reform as a conservative issue. you won't believe this, but it is truly the case. we have people like newt gingrich pending op-ed in the "washington post" talking about criminal justice reform as a conservative issue. we have groups like right on crime that have become established that now have a defense such as david keene, pat nolan, grover norquist, fiscal conservatives are now talking about criminal justice reform. it has brought new allies that are significant validaters to the kinds of messages that the american civil liberties union has been trying to work on for several years, and it is a positive development for the

we rank first in the world in the per capita incarceration of our fellow citizens. the russians are fading fast in second or third place together with the belarus people. the rates of the incarceration are five, six, seven, eight times than most in other societies, europe and elsewhere, though their rates of nonviolent crime and drug use are not that much different than ours. so if another country were to lock up its own people at the rate that we do, and if our rates of incarceration were more normative to the rest of the world, we would regard with that other country was doing as a massive violation of human rights. that's the way we would look at it. now, the other point here is what we're doing is not even consistent with american history. i mean, we had 500,000 people behind bars in 1980 and now we have 2.3 million, 2.4 million people behind bars and almost have 5,000 people behind bars just for a drug violation. there are as many people behind bars for a drug violation than we had for everything in 1980. it's not consistent with global standards and not consis

i do not believe that incarceration has taken us where we need to be. i believe the war on drugs has been a failure. when we institutionalize people over extended periods of time, we take low-level offenders in the early stages and harden them and we send them to the university of crime. by the time they get out of prison, they become a bigger social problem. where i come from, whether it is the [unintelligible] i am on the side of saying we need to reform our system and reduce the number of people we send to jail or prison. we need to reserve that space for people that are truly dangerous and have no way of fixing themselves. we have to realize there will be some people that will go to prison because the rest of us need to have some people in prison in order for us to be safe but that is a small minority. there are many other solutions out there whether it is someone who has engaged in drugs or has a drug addiction. or engaging in some other low- level crime. every move away from a cursory those people in the early stages and deal with different forms

and if you look at other jurisdictions throughout the state, you'll find heavy incarceration rates and not used. in fact the prosecutor is not using those programs. we're very fortunate in our district attorney. he is very visionary, and i just commend him for his stepping out there and taking this position which i support, also, in terms of we have got to focus on treatment rather than say, well, there's this program or that program when in fact the state hasn't funded it. so it's placed that burden on the local counties. >> tal, can you respond to marty's point and wendy's? >> i can say just based on my experience in dealing with individuals who have drug problems, most of the time i don't think that the threat of a quote, unquote, felony conviction is going to necessarily prevent them from using. i think what would make more sense is to provide them with more services and to be more individualized in terms of treatment and how we address specific individuals. i also would note that when you are facing a misdemeanor charge, you're facing up to a year in county jail. now, sometimes yo

if another country were to lock up its own people at the rate that we do, and if our rates of incarceration were more normative to the rest of the world, we would regard with that other country was doing as a massive violation of human rights. that's the way we would look at it. now, the other point here is what we're doing is not even consistent with american history. i mean, we had 500,000 people behind bars in 1980 and now we have 2.3 million, 2.4 million people behind bars and almost have 5,000 people behind bars just for a drug violation. there are as many people behind bars for a drug violation than we had for everything in 1980. it's not consistent with global standards and not consistent with our own history. it's costing a vast amount of money and i think what you see is for some of the d.a.'s and others are beginning to say enough is enough. we're seeing prison populations beginning to decline but when it comes down to the question, who are the first people we should stop putting behind bars? who is the people who really don't belong there? it's people whose only offense is posses

i think that you still have the majority of those individuals who were incarcerated with state prison for possession either had strike priors, serious offenses, or they had pled down from a sales case. >> tal, let me ask you to respond to perhaps marty's point. you're a deputy public offender in san francisco and you've handled dozens of drug case, drug possession cases, you've been -- a lot of people caught their attention when you were quoted in the press saying the way we handle drug enforcement here in california is in effect a war on crumbs instead of the often used phrase on drugs. how do you respond to his remarks? >> well, i think the first thing that we have to recognize is that the majority of people who are caught up in the criminal justice system and who are prosecuted for this type of offense for possession offenses and to some degree possession for sale offenses, the vast majority are indigent people and the vast majority of those indigent people are people of color. so what you have are two systems in place. you have a system where privileged white middle class people b

is a privilege. >> incarceration is incarceration is incarceration.nd people need to follow the rules. absolutely no alcohol. no drugs. >> seems like every time i'm trying to do the right thing to do better, it's -- a rock just falls right in front of me and i can't go no further. it's like i'm stuck right there. >> lohden is moved to a fresh arrest dorm. a special housing unit for women newly booked into the jail. she will remain until a judge decides whether to return her to home incarceration or make her serve the rest of her sentence in jail. but lohden seems determined to make an impression. >> that's my bunk. >> yeah, it's mine now. you snooze, you lose. there ain't no bunk assignments in [ bleep ] jail. get that [ bleep ] right. >> hey, come back out here. >> do they own bunks around here? >> come back outside. >> i'm good. >> come on, come on. >> excuse me? excuse me? excuse me? >> i said i'm pregnant and sick and i have to be on the bottom bunk. >> okay. that's fine. but i didn't think the jail, nobody owns no bunks around here. >> we thought

is it ethical to incarcerate people for the sole purpose of making money? >> burl cain, warden of one of the country's biggest prisons, angola, says he has reservations about profiting from incarcerations. >> yes, the profit motive bothers me when the profit motive is the motive to not provide the necessary essentials for the inmate. you feed them with a thimble, is a term i use. you try to cut them to 1,800 calories a day, and so those things bother me, and they do that in the private sector more than the public, because they measure every little thing they give you. they're cutting costs, they're cutting dollars, and when they cut your quality of life by doing that, that's wrong. >> the approximately $25 payment the sheriffs receive per inmate per day is less that a third of the average daily prison costs nationally, so there is little or no money left over for rehab or education programs. >> the term that that often used is warehousing, that these people are just being warehoused during their sentence. >> going back to philadelphia in the late 18th centu

if you believe it is achieved much beyond horrific budgetary costs and extremely high levels of incarceration in the us as well as the staggering death toll south of the border and some american states liberalized their drug laws is it time for the us as a whole to do the same. to cross off the war on drugs i'm joined by peter how come in washington he's president emeritus and a senior fellow at the interim merican dialogue and in boston we have kevin so bad he is director of the drug policy institute at the university of florida and a former white house senior advisor on drug policy or a gentleman crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want to can i am i to go to you i mean talk about colorado is talking about washington i mean the perception outside of the united states is that the united states is legalizing it at home but continuing the war on drugs in mexico so how do you square the circle. well i mean you know colorado and washington had votes but frankly federal law is still supreme in what federal laws and this is what president obama has said numerous times

when we incarcerate somebody, we have to do something for them. i was incarcerated for 28 years. when they come out, they are worse than when they were in prison. the thing we need to do, be in touch with the individuals we work with. during the time they are going to sentencing. we need to provide something while they are incarcerated. you just wait for the time to go by. there is no criteria. what you need to do, but you need your high-school diploma. when your time is up, you go. ewing got to do anything. there is nothing you have to do. -- you ain't got to do anything. there is nothing you have to do. they get involved with other gang members and they get worse. the thing we have to do, and if we want it to work, i believe everybody is redeemable. i really believe that. [applause] it's not so, i would not be here. you know? i know i am making an impact on society. i know that. the thing we have to, as the community, -- come as as a community. that is the problem. when i am ready to go to juvenile hall, i have problems getting a pass. and i go there all the time. just to be ab

when you're talking about incarceration nobody is proud of the fact that the u.s. has gone from four hundred thousand people in state and federal prison to one point four million over tripling in the last twenty years that's not something to be proud of but actually what we've learned is that there are ways to work within the criminal justice system to deliver treatment to deliver drug courts where you actually have a social worker and a doctor and others that are giving people treatment and having sort of consequences if you don't attend treatment they're actually ways to work within the system and there are ways to improve the system i mean just because you say we don't want to legalize drugs it doesn't mean that that means we don't want to reform our criminal justice system which i would agree is also let me jump in here we have five really i'm very happy to be on probation and there is no hurry they were not going to be joined by ethan nadelmann he's in new york he is the founder and executive director of the drug policy alliance and thank you for being with us

but sean phillips believes that his incarceration at bexar county jail might have been the one thinghat actually saved his life. >> i wu literally, when i came in here, pretty much knocking at death's door. ♪ >> phillips is currently awaiting trial on a murder charge to which he has pled not guilty. when he was first booked into the jail, the 5'10" inmate weighed 437 pounds. >> i was type 2 diabetic. i was taking insulin twice a day. i couldn't even walk half a block without almost having a heart attack. >> but in the year and a half he has been here, phillips has reduced his weight by almost 1/3. >> i was 437 when i came in i am now 265 pounds. >> phillips has had several prior convictions for burglary and theft. >> these are some previous photos of mr. phillips that we have. 2001, 2003. >> from 200 pound to morbid obesity, his mug shots tell the story of his exponential weight gain. >> my self-esteem out there in the free had plummeted. i stopped giving a care about everything. i was drinking anywhere from, a bottle to a bottle and a half of jack a day. i started eating and eating

you know how much it costs a day to incarcerate somebody? >> i'm paying you to lock me up. didn't ask -- >> you ain't paying me. you're paying tax dollars. >> you just said i'm taking money from y'all. >> you're taking from metro government. i work for metro government. >> so i got to pay the government for them to lock me up? >> yeah, 'cause the government has to pay for your housing. it has to pay for these bills. >> no, i'm not going to bull county. >> you got to pay $25 a day to be incarcerated. >> that's bull[bleep] though is what i'm saying. you're charging me to be locked up. i didn't ask to be locked up. >> we're not charging you. >> i didn't say, "come lock me up." >> taxpayers voted that, all right? >> i didn't say, "come lock me up. here comes some money. here. i want to be in jail." i get bills on the street to pay. [bleep] i don't like paying the government to lock me up. >> step back in. >> [ clears throat ] >> he got kind of mad, but, you know, he's got to deal with the consequences. like lieutenant collins told him, put money on the books illegally. you know

the lead to incarceration is for in new york city you have people being arrested and sent to jail for a few days if they have the any other sort of criminal evidence can be for much longer i want to say i agree with virtually resigned kevin before because what he was saying about all policy i largely agreed with i think the key point also is that the argument is not to legalize marijuana because we've legalized alcohol the point is and to peter hakan i would say we can't really put this conversation aside because now the country is evenly split on the issue of legalizing marijuana like alcohol washington and collar vote rather voters just said fifty five to forty five in the last election other states are going to do the same and we have to take certain risks and certain opportunities to move in a new direction is there a risk to legalizing marijuana might more people use it yes that is a risk but the potential benefit in terms of reducing a black market that has up to tens of billions of dollars a year the potential benefit of taxing and regulating this and allowing police to focus o

we were under 2,000 physical arrests of juveniles and in favors of alternatives to incarceration. this is the model we used. i was at bay view and this is exactly what we did and achieved reduction in homicides and the emphasis wasn't on narcotics and incarceration and as thorough the study is there is someone wiser that says bad data gives you bad information. in that time we adding mit our data is mad. our data is much bmplt i invite you to do a survey work with the youth guidance center and the probation department to come up with a new survey to suggest how far we have come rather than suggest that you did very well and passionately that we're in the middle of a current trend that actually ended what is now four years ago. >> right absolutely so let me be clear we are using data from 2009 because that was the most recent data publicly accessible to us. 2010 there was a severe glitch in the classification data system with the police department and we weren't able to use that data and of course now that you upgraded our ssz this is the poverty opportunity to do a new evaluation