it's not completely proven. >> he will be shocked to hear that. >> when we said it is indeemic, it is. i don't know how you get the system with 250,000 people all over the place. all these people pouring in. all these veterans from korea and world war ii. and that you aren't going to have these kinds of problems. >> did he fail to fire because he doesn't want the appearance of caving under pressure and he feels it's more president-like not to yield? not to fire? or is -- >> i also think look, you throw him to the wolves. it isn't going to cause the wolf pack to stop going after people. >> this is not a false issue. this is not a false issue, okay. it's not just the 40 plus people who died. there are countless others who have been badly treated. if you can't follow up on the quality of the medical care you are delivering, then it seems to be you shouldn't be in that job. >> should we have a v.a., because it happens all the time. >> it needs to be fund mentally reformed. >> he was brought in to change the culture of the v.a. this is not an administration that wants the number one to thi