i was always struck by may be the most famous examples of african-americans standing up, irene morgan in virginia, rosa parks, obviously the women seem to be very well represented, and more common among women. >> a lot of times they were challenging, from the lady's car doing it at a time before segregation laws clearly specifying white or black and being the divisions, they go into court, and often they win and one of the things that pushes courts toward plessy is ladies car, that black women aren't women, a race based system, and municipal transportation, more women wrote that in montgomery, and men, challenged trains and planes, and it gets to court. a somewhat better chance, and and that might be part of it. >> is there any softening of the system. and the individuals, they face some of the hazards of segregated travel. >> one really arresting story, mary church terrel, an important black female leader being harassed by a conductor in a train in the late 1960s asking people whose little in word is this, i don't think people were spared in segregation, they were subject to the same

it is what some individuals see in terms of what they read in the newspaper and irene morgan things aredesegregated. okay i'm not going to obey these laws. and then get changed maybe. >> i wonder what you would think about the fact that segregated travel, often time corporations are involved. you got bus companies like greyhound and trailways and airlines and you have the citizens as well and feels it's more front and center with travel there corporations and many of which take orders in the north. southern affiliates is greyhound and out of atlanta. i wonder how much of that is something we should know about and that you ran into? >> i read into it a lot. corporations play an interesting role. they go along with segregation they actually initially over railroad would've really preferred not to see jim crow worry actually supply separate but equal accommodations. once it didn't they went along with it. sort of i would argue even began to see segregation as part of what they were selling. because they came depression from southern states on this. even when they did not necessarily have t