i spoke with jack abramhoff earlier. >> jack, when is the first time you recall crossing the line as getting into something that could be criminal behavior? >> well, when i was a lobbyist i didn't think i was crossing lines, but that's the problem. >> you never thought of some. >> no, no. i never thought i was crossing lines. the problem is, first of all, the line are drawn in a way that that's kind of murky, as you know, in that business so you are never quite sure where the line is. and also the way i operated, unfortunately in those days, i was hyperaggressive, and i wanted to win, win, win. and i stopped caring where the lines were. that was the problem. >> but once you were arrested, indicted, put on trial, there had to be a point at which obviously where you said, you know what? i've really done some horrible things. when did that happen? >> after it happened and it was clear to me i wasn't coming back, when it first happened, when i was first i guess when senator mckee took my e-mails and started making them public and the justice department started getting involved, i told my

he got guys like tim phillips and ralph reed, jack abramhoff worked with those guys to dupe conservativeupporting the interests of their lobbying clients. they would get voters who hated gambling, for instance, to oppose some specific gambling association. it will held eliminate the competition for the casinos they were working for. ralph reed is supposed to be a christian leader. it couldn't look like he was paid by the casino. instead they laundered the money through a conservative group to make it look like it was all paks it and bt money. the grover norquist tax reform group. if you follow the money, it looks like conservative activism. it looks principaled, right? the money is laundered through conservative activism. really it's what some rich company wants and is willing to pay for. tim phillips and ralph reed got christians to write support in keeping the nad in the usa label in clothes that were made in islands in a commonwealth. folks manufactured in near slave labor sweat shop conditions that included things like forced prous tuition and forced abortions among the destitute wor