i think jack smith saw the value in talking to evan corchran.o the chief judge when evan asserted attorney-client privilege. overrode that privilege and got the testimony. so jack is still thinking what are the other, you know, strings i need to pull we know there was a new round of subpoenas, different people what had been at mar-a-lago to learn what they knew it does appear he had a flurry of activity recently again, i think the other guests got it right it shows that at least trump and his lawyers feel like jack is closing in on them this is a hail kevin this is really an embarrassing letter for attorneys to write. i know that a long time department of justice attorney is part of this team and he should be ashamed of taking part in a request like this >> wow i guess embarrassing lawyers is better than making them hire defense attorneys. thank you four all your great reporting to day harry and mary, thank you for starting us off. be sure to check out mary's new podcast. it will smamake you smarter the latest episode of prosecuting donald trump

i don't think so i think jack smith's going to have a crush of evidence, and merrick garland's going to have to make another difficult choice as trump is about to clinch the republican nomination. >> you just laid it all out so clearly, and as you say, the way that people game it out, if they are, shall we say, amoral or have no other ethical guideline, and people like trump may look at this and say, here's how i'll rattle the system. here's how i'll take advantage of well intentioned errors when we talk about the security of democracy itself, those aren't the kind of errors i think we can afford to keep making. >> no, and when it was a threat of terrorism from abroad, republicans didn't blink they didn't flinch there was nothing they wouldn't do ideas wildly unpopular with our viewers but when it was a domestic violent extremism threat that intercepted with trump as base, they wanted to look the other way mitch mcconnell goes to the well of the senate and says, i refer these crimes if they were crimes -- no one wants to touch it not the senate republicans and not merrick garland who

any other week where a forme president wasn't indicted, thi ruling in favor of jack smith, or for jackr talking about through th entire hour. but we are talking about this bit less because of what has happened to the former president. how significant of a ruling wa this that mike pence has t comply or a testify in jac smith's investigation? >> that part of the ruling i very significant it means he does have to giv testimony about the things tha jack smith is really intereste in i think to the extent that h and trump's allies are claimin victory -- it is limited to the fact that because the vice president actually serves as the president of the senate, he ha some legislative role. that means that he has som immunity under the speech or debate clause of the constitution, which protects people in congress for the actions and words that they ma say or do in the course of their legislative duties but that sounds like the chief justice took a very surgical approach here and he said, wit respect to his actions, as president of the senate, he ha some immunity there. but he does not have execut

tell me what you think jack smith wants to know from mike pence. >> i dent think jack smith is goingo get a day of sleep before he hauls mike pence in. nicolle, he will want to know more about this conversation on january 5th, that mark short called the secret service to say that he was worried that the president of the united states was going to turn on the vice president of the united states and that there was a security risk why did pence have those concerns, did he communicate them directly to then president trump and how did trump respond? it is key to both the factual investigation of what happened on january 6, to prevent this kind of breakdown from ever happening again and it is key for the criminal investigation one reason for that, nicolle, is that there are other people who probably know more, mark meadows is exhibit 1 there but when he gets hauled into the grand jury, he almost certainly will take the fifth. because he has criminal exposure so he will probably never testify. pence, his testimony is extraordinarily important. >> let me show you one other thing that we know

you know, prior to jack smith. you know, these charges really do need to be brought some time this spring but they needed to be brought maybe last spring we are coming up op more than two years after january 6th. and to andrew's point, it takes a year to come to trial. well, a year from now the republican presidential nomination may already be sewed up it may be over we will be in the heart of the presidential campaign. so it's already -- we are already up against this deadline and i do worry about this. i have heard speculation that jack smith has to come up with something, take some action by the end of spring. well, it is april 14th, 2023 and so that time clock is now absolutely crucial i worry that we have waited too long i think that it's legitimate to be frustrated about the delays, about the slow action ever the department of justice. but, yes, time is pressing we can really hear time's winded chariot at our back at the moment. >> i ask questions on this show for years about how long it has taken the merrick

the central issue for jack smith is what did the president intend with his words, and deeds, or lack thereof of january 6th? did he intend for the joint session to be disrupted? sessions like yesterday, to this rider, to me, are strong evidence that he intended for them to succeed. for them to do exactly what they did, and more. it is outrageous, and very telling. >> meanwhile, still no verdict in the trial of five members of the proud boys, charged with seditious conspiracy for their rules on january 6th. the jury, in that case, continues its deliberations on monday. with that, we bring our lead off panel, jean allen, national politics reporter for nbc. the co-anchor of pbs news hour, and an msnbc contributor. barbara mcquade, a veteran federal prosecutor, and former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. good evening to all of you. john, i need to start with you. your conversation with donald trump was last night, i can't remember, where mike pence had gone to testify before jack smith's grand jury, and you are sort of trump about it? >> i did. i was standing outside o

does this give us an idea of when jack smith might be deciding to charge. that is absent that he hasn't yet questioned? >> reporter: it gives us a little bit more information. our justice team has reported that there are other subpoenas still outstanding, folks we know about who are expected to come testify before jack smith's grand jury. you haven't done so yet. it's not as though pence is the end of the road here. i can't imagine any other witness having more of a legal back and forth before they were able to come testify. i mean, remember, pence had fought this, and the idea that he was exempted under the speech and debate clause from having to testify. donald trump's legal team fought this through an appeal's court ruling, that executive privilege. so i think pence is probably the hardest witness that jack smith was going to have to pursue to get him to testify in terms of legal back and forth. he won't be the last. that's a long way of saying they're not done yet, katy, you can see how the runway might play out over the next couple of weeks and months.

fomenting his people with a li about the power of the vic president, i think that's huge home run for jack smith hey >> neal katyal, how many ways does donald trump have to publicly confessed in th documents case for jack smit to be ready to go? this latest one -- as president, i have the right to declassify documents and th process is automatic if i take them with me, it's automatic. the government hasn't even referred to the fact that th documents are classified, when they were going for that searc warrant. that was not what it was about it was not about governmen documents, classified or not along with other elements that this strange statement tha sounds like a confession plays into >> yeah, so first of all lawrence, before we get to the stolen documents case, i think the big news tonight - i think many americans - people around the world ar asking, why is this nigh different than any other night and for the first time for the second day in american history, a former president, donald trump, is under arrest. and under arrest for what is going on in new york i don't think we should lose sight

. >> i think it was probably the wrong judgment i do think that jack smith now is where he needs to bed by all accounts going forward. but that time delay, we're all looking at the clock right now there is going to be an issue because those charges -- if they are brought, it's not going to be for some time. >> that's right. >> we're all sitting there thinking is there going to be a trial before the election or is all of this going to be for not at the federal level because these were brought too late. >> and i think even the appointment of jack smith, which to me felt like i need to put some distance. right? the doj itself, to me, as an outsider looking in, should have had within it the capability of doing this investigation without adding this layer in between when you add the layer, that means jack smith had to get up to speed i think he wasover seas when he was first appointed. >> he was. >> so you then have to have him get up to speed on the case. then you start this investigation. which then delays it and to your point, we are looking at the possibility that this state trial goes

resection there is plenty that that jack smith can certainly ask about. but there is going to be some gray area that might have to be litigated quite a lot he can get to and we have been so focused for the past few weeks on this investigation by the manhattan district attorney , but shan behind the scenes we have learned that top trump national security advisors they have testified before the special counsel jack smith, in this federal january 6th investigations. so do you believe that this is the investigation? that trump really needs to be more worried about oh, i think he needs to be more worried about all of them. honestly i mean, they're all have momentum. they're all kind of rolling downhill towards them . i think the testimony we're hearing about here. the inner circle. you know, that should be very worrisome to them. that's his inner circle. his executive privilege claims keep getting knocked down. ah it's really important to get to talk to those people. but what they say is it was referring to devil's always in the details. just because they tell

jack smith is gonna get it, jack smith is gonna get access to information that i think will only corroborate, and strengthen the evidence of the violation of those criminal statutes. that is why i believe it is only a matter of time, if mayor garland shooters were this gonna make this call based on the facts in the law, that we are looking at criminal charges, conspiratorial conduct to obstruct the official proceeding on january 6th to make false statements with those fake electors advocates, to giving cover to an insurrection, all of those offenses that we lead out in great detail in our report. >> john, as a veteran of the u.s. department of justice, as a u.s. attorney, and also as a committee, do you feel the same way? >> i do. i think that the special counsel is probably going to want to move quickly, it is always difficult to move quickly in a criminal investigation, but i think he's going to try to move as quickly as he can. i think he probably wants to avoid an indictment being right around the time of the iowa caucuses, or the new hampshire primaries. so i would think he has every in

if special counsel jack smith watching that intently?u think that that bears any weight at all on his decision to charge? >> i think he's looking at it. you want to know about the particular proof. you want to know if there were any particular issues that the defense raised that were troublesome. but the case against donald trump will be very different. and every case, when you are a prosecutor, you think of as in terms of its unique facts. >> they're like children. >> yes, in some ways, yes. it's a very individualized determination about whether -- and it's not very sexy to talk about. but you think about it in terms of the defendant and in terms of a specific charge and then the specific elements of that charge. and for each of them, you are saying, can i prove that beyond a reasonable doubt? so, i don't -- at the end of the day, i don't think that a verdict on seditious conspiracy, in the proud boys or oath keepers, case is going to be something that stops jack smith from going forward. >> and the inverse, you also think, is true. if

here's that breaking news moment >> has the special counsel jack smith been in contact with you >> id the descriptions of all of the tapes we have. and we are in the process of working out targeted subpoenas to give those tapes over so that we are certain that no matter what happens in our case, all of the truth gets out >> is the doj one of those entities >> yes >> and is it the special counsel? >> it would be the special counsel, yes >> interesting, and they contacted you first? >> yes >> there you have it that is new information i confirmed there by the actual lawyer for the fox whistleblower, saying that not only does jack smith's investigation into the insurrection and coup want this information, but they initiated the contact, they asked for it, and it shows that still active probe is looking at specifically what some government officials were doing and saying in the lead-up to the january 6th insurrection and sedition. that'sew ns broken right here on "the beat. we'll be right back. ♪♪ allergies don't have to be scary. (screaming) defeat allergy headaches fast with new flonase

and now mike pence will testif under oath to jack smith's grand jury about every singl word that donald trump said to him when he was trying to ge vice president mike pence to break the law and overturn the presidential election on january 6th. if those conversations wit mike pence or evidence tha donald trump committed a crime mike pence could be the star witness, the michael cohen i the case of donald j trump united states of america versu donald j trump if donald trump is charged b jack smith's grand jury with crimes leading up to and o january 6th. mike pence's refusal to appeal that he must testify, is a indication of just how muc mike pence himself might not have believed the absurdis grounds of which he wa claiming that he did not hav to testify it's more likely that future losing presidential candidat mike pence will try to somehow preserve what he thinks will b his perceived loyalty to donal trump by fighting or pretendin to fight jack smith's effort t put mike pence under oath in front of the grand jury. mike pence was only willing to go one round in that fight instead of taki

he's called jack smith a lunatic and a political hitman you've worked with jack smith, is that the personou know? >> the president has every right to be frustrated by being politically target i mean, we are crossing a rubicon where prosecutors can announce -- and this is the new york case specifically and georgia -- hey, i'm going to run for office with the idea of taking down donald trump 27 yea. >> jack smith -- that is flipping -- i was a prosecutor for 27 years. >> jack smith -- >> you are supposed to be judicious. you are supposed to pursue the evidence where it takes you, you use your discretion as a prosecutor to take what's right. >> you stand by the comments he made about jack smith? calling him a monster and a lunatic? >> i'm telling you there's a reason to be frustrated. there's an unethical nature of the prosecution that not even a local da in butte would do because they know it's against the ethics of being a prosecutor >> so you stand by the president politicizing these attacks on jack smith >> look, the president is a very resilient guy. he's a very opinionated guy. i'm not

thanks, alex breaking news, life comes at you fast, and sodas jack smith's subpoena, if you'r mike pence we reported last night of th top of the show that donal trump lost his bid to stop mik pence from testifying, and today, special prosecutor jack smith had vice president mik pence before a federal grand jury, investigating donald trump and his role in januar six. that was fast. pence testified for more tha five hours political reports pence' closed-door appearance rocke an extraordinary flash point i jack smith's probe pence's appearance was accompanied by a frenzy of security activity in the federal courthouse in washington d.c., where u.s. marshals and other securit personnel conducted sweeps o the building before pence wa whisked inside without being spotted by cameras at th courthouse as main entrances ages former vice president did not comment on the appeals court's decision or pence' appearance, but previously indicated pence would follow the orders of the court. here's what mike pence described his final days wit donald trump in an op-ed in th wall street journal. quote, on jan

that means that he will be available to jack smith.ical witnes for jack smith because he, mor than anyone else, can give u insight into what donald trump's frame of mind was on that day january 6th when th insurrection was happening and mike pence was at the center o all the action >> brendan, pick up on wha most of us are talking about the former vice president is trying to make this a victory. is it a victory and also, is there a chance that after mike pence testifies, that he could announce his 2024 bid that w are all expecting? more forcefully, will he g after donald trump >> it certainly seems like mik pence has something that h wants to say he is grabbing a fig leave her to claim victory now i will talk. but mike pence has, more tha anybody, an opportunity to impact, i think, what happen with the special counsel but politically, if it is th former presidents own vice president who is testifyin that he led the insurrection that he was responsible. that is very powerful. i don't think mike pence would be doing this unless he wanted

jack smith just want a big victory, a couple of big legal victories in requiring, ah, testimony from mark meadows and other senior white house officials. i, he just, it just today the news broke that dumb. former vice president pants is not going to appeal to judicial ruling that would force him to testify and that investigation. so there's a lot of heavy up, a fire power behind jack's miss investigation. it's going on, you know, it seems there's a lot of activity, but if you factor in all the people who are gonna have to testify before, he can conclude this investigation. i think it's gonna take a more time. so we got the funny willis thing coming up i, you know, may, june, possibly july, and them the jack smith stuff. so the bottom line is, you know, no matter what he says, and no matter how people feel about it, donald trump is going to have to be spending a lot of time in a lot of court rooms, even while he's running for president or mike richie one of the things that has surprised me and you know, maybe i don't have the full story is that one can be a convicted criminal and stil

and them the jack smith stuff. so the bottom line is, you know, no matter what he says, and no matter how people feel about it, donald trump is going to have to be spending a lot of time in a lot of court rooms, even while he's running for president or mike, which he one of the things it has surprised me and you know, maybe i don't have the full story, is that one can be a convicted criminal and still be elected president of the united states still service press, united states, you know, almost all of the other candidates out include including your former boss was nearly, was thought of as a potential candidate for president. how do you think they're hearing what mike is a cough just shared because my sense is that from the moment donald trump's private estate was rated by the f b i. and also from the moment when he announced himself, in fact, we've got this the same, or we can show up right now where it reads the, the far and away leading republican candidate and former president of the united states of america wi

my panel back with me, michael are you at all surprised tha jack smith is looking at obstruction?ok, if yo look at what happens in this investigation, this case and what happens around trump, the question is, was the governmen being actively, purposefully misled by trump's lawyers, and we know that the information that the trump's lawyers provided to the government about what trump had was not accurate we know that much. if you are the investigator, you want to know why is it tha the inaccurate information was provided to the governments? why didn't they say, we don' have any more classified documents and then when they did a search of mar-a-lago they found dozens, and dozens, and dozens of them where they misled because th lawyers were trying to mislead them where they misled because it was a miscommunication, or where they missed that because donald trump was telling his lawyers to mislead them? and did the lawyers know tha trump was telling them false information when they relate that to the government in some ways, explaining a cas like that to a jury who woul be easier than,

then, was jack smith. now today , the former president is actually calling for the defunding of federal law enforcement. he posted this today on his social network, quoting now republicans in congress should defund the doj and fbi until they come to their senses. last night. he also verbally attacked the judge in his new york case, the judge's wife and the judge's daughter. we start with mr pence's decision to testify. cnn's sara murray joins us now what more do we know about the testimony him opting not to appeal the ruling that orders him to testify? obviously, you know, it's a significant step that he has decided not to appeal. a prior court had said he must testify about his conversations with donald trump in the run up to january. 6th where we, of course know the former president put enormous pressure on mike pence not to certify the results of the 2020 election he did get, you know a slim victory from the court, saying that there were there was a period where pence was serving as president of the sen

jack smith has been closing in on many aspects of these trump plots and he's again questioning one of the most senior people in trump's orbit as we have been reporting from the beginning of his political era, 2015 or so. all the way through the arraignment. we're talking about boris epstein. a second day talking to investigators. abc reporting after several hours of questions, he's back for more prosecutors looking at his conversations and interactions with trump attorneys like giuliani and john eastman, and trump himself "the washington post" has reported that epstein's speak to trump in the current era as many as five times a day. which means there is a lot linking him and the former president in ways that these investigators are interested in. as for the names, they're familiar, because they are part of the controversial set of advisers who were helping try to normalize, see the ground for, or execute on a coup plot. all of them, the three i just mentioned have been recommended for criminal prosecution by the january 6th committee, which was serving in the last congress abc also re

>> i do think it means that jack smith, the prosecutor, was going really slowly day-by-day. beyond that, i don't think we can say too much except that it does say something about jack smith's time and. if you're a prosecutor and you are thinking of bringing in the former vice president, like i said, that's a big deal. you do that only at the end. you have one shot. it's kind of like eminem. you have one opportunity. >> you bring the biggest fish in at the end. >> you can't bring him in again. maybe you can if new facts emerge, but you really want to try to do that to button everything up. i do think what that means is that we are going to see some movement from jack smith officially on to the next things in the next couple of weeks. >> do you think there are additional big fish which could come here after pence? >> i don't think so. i think pence is kind of the last person. there are other people like john eastman and others who probably are asserting attorney-client privilege or maybe the targets. you don't bring targets into the grand jury necessarily. i think we are reall

you know, jack smith was appointed in november. he, this thing has picked up speed. very quickly now, when it comes to thos aides testifying, some may tak the fifth. i mean if mark meadows is in any sense, he will be taking the fifth. i mean he is potentially a defendant. so it might not take as long a we think cuccinelli for example is part of those aides, he is ha already testified partially. so i do think it will go relatively quickly jack smith seems like a ma with a foot on the accelerator >> how big a deal is mik pence's testimony? mostly because it feels like some people who know mike penc that he was waiting for this t happen he actually wants to testify he just didn't want to be th guy to not put all the brake on being able to testify -- >> well mike pence's ability t stand up for himself it's just in my opinion ridiculous the guy is just, just a meal mouth weren't, i can't stand him. all he does is pander to people so it wouldn't surprise me i he had 17 other motives. but he is gonna have to testif to the conversations that he had with the president some of

that would be a problem but it is a problem that needs to be known by jack smith and the prosecutors now. before they bring charges so that they can resolve those things and have a clear picture of what trump knew about how wrong it was. there was no evidence of fraud and the plan of action was against the constitution. >> i want to also turn to another trump case, the civil trial that began this week. we heard emotional testimony so far. how have trump's attorneys including -- tried to refute carroll's rape defamation allegations. >> they have done two things. all which seem to me to be going back to maybe the 70s. things before rape shield laws existed. and it only takes one or to turn against the verdict for eugene carroll to win. i think it was extremely over

. >> we know that special counsel jack smith is also investigating efforts to subvert the election.pecial counsel's office is not coordinating with d.a.'s and the timing of potential charging decisions, but because jack smith and fani willis have a lot of overlap, do you think there's a possibility the doj is talking to the d.a.'s office and they're coordinating the potential rollout of any indictments because the time frame looks to be similar, this summer. >> yeah, and, you know, we don't have a time frame from jack smith. what we know from jack smith is as a federal prosecutor he's going to be very conscience of not taking any action too close to an election that could be perceived as trying to influence that election. so whether that's nis summer or this fall or even in had spring really kind of dedepends on that proximity to the election, which we know will be november 2024, but i don't think it has to be this summer. in terms of coordination i do think they're probably going to be trying to be careful to not, you know, have an appearance of coordinating in a way that could be

jack smith or someone who works for him. is like it's not just i mean the documents thing was the part. he seemed to be really eager to confess that particular part of it that he took the documents, but it's not just that the entire speech was really about all of the legal jeopardy that he's in reminding voters for whatever reason that this is a former president. who has four active criminal investigations into his conduct. there has never been a president who has had this much of his conduct the scope of his conduct under so much legal criminal scrutiny, and he just went to mar-a-lago to remind millions of americans that that's the case and this is why it's going to be an issue for him. alvin bragg case is going to be adjudicated. maybe it's strong or maybe it's not. but the american voters are going to have to decide whether that what they saw in mar-a-lago , a former president, who has all this conduct under scrutiny , whether that is acceptable to them, and he wants voters to basically say, just ignore it all. it's all c

what do you think the stakes are of jack smith's work and merrick garland's treatment of it?ld just add that what we saw last week is that trump had one of his best fund-raising weeks since he left the oval so i do think -- >> second to the insurrection. we have to be honest about what else really rated in maga world. it was the coup and the insurrection after the coup >> and the base -- i mean the loser with the donald trump indictment last week was ron desantis so trump really killed it in the polls and it really helped him i think another one of these -- and again, that's not what you should -- you should not focus on the craziness. >> no, but it's part of it my demented brain is how is ron desantis trying to get arraigned and arrested now all right, mike sochmidt, thank you for being here. >>> after the break, you can't expel hope that is what one of the tennessee three had to say at that after he was reinstated as a tennessee state representative returning to the body that expelled him days ago. we'll bring you the latest, next >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we're

a close trump ally meeting with special counsel jack smith and his team is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends including one of my favorite colleagues, msnbc host and chief legal analyst ari melber we saw in the interview with boris. also joining us andrew weisman, former prosecutor and senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. with us from washington, "new york times" congressional reporter ari, i told you a minute ago, i heard boris and thought, ari, you're sort of the person who has interviewed him before jack smith will get a chance at that. i wonder if you could tell what's that line of questioning would be like. >> i think you laid it out so well, nicolle. this is someone who is central not many people go back to '15 and make it all the way to the arraignment. ivanka trump hasn't made it that far. >> it's like dawn to dusk, right? just down the elevator, all the way through the arraignment, you're right >> two reasons for that, one, boris is incredibly persistent, loyal or committed person for donald trump, and people can

regarding that focus, the obstruction that he engaged in, the special counsel jack smith has amassedle new reporting in the "washington post. from that story, "in the classified documents case federal investigators have gathered new and significant evidence that after the subpoena was delivered trump looked through the contents of some of the boxes of documents in his home, apparently out of a desire to keep secertain things in his possession, the people familiar with the investigation said. investigators now suspect based on witness statements, security camera footage and other documentary evidence that boxes including classified material were moved from a mar-a-lago storage area after the subpoena was served and that trump personally examined at least some of those boxes, according to these people. while trump's team returned some documents with classified markings in response to the subpoena, a later fbi search found more than 100 additional classified items that had not been turned over the "washington post" details how this behavior was happening even earlier "investigators have

is that your general assessment of how jack smith is doing on the basis of what we know? gotta love a man -- it's a rare moment when i congratulate harry litman for his brevity >>> more to come the supreme court giving itself two more days to decide on a major, major, major ruling affecting millions and millions of americans we will tell what you that is right after this quick break don't go away. ♪ what will you do? will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam who make...? ...everyday products... ...designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder - that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that... ...i need a breakthrough card... like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more... plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases! and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas... ...a brilliant reality! the ink busine

and if i were jack smith, i'd be happy.talked about the boxes as jamie was saying earlier, he effectively confessed to moving boxes and that's something that i think jack smith is going to be interested in, you know, um john king, one of the things that's interesting about this case. according to polling, at least the last polling i saw most americans were supportive of the indictment. even before we knew what was in it. i mean, the reporting was accurate in terms of what we speculated was going to be in it. um but also a majority of americans thought it was political. and it's interesting because that doesn't necessarily mean something pejorative, and i was thinking about the house oversight committee's investigation into hunter biden, which is which possibly is going to turn up. some malfeasance by hunter. biden i it wouldn't surprise me . i think it's a political investigation. that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not going to find anything, though right? the hunter, there is perfectly legitimate oversight of hunte

we don't have a timeframe from jack smith. federal prosecutor h is going to be very consciou of not taking any action t close to an election that coul be perceived as trying t influence that election. s whether that is the summer o this fall, for even in the spring, you know, it reall kind of depends on tha proximity to the election, which, of course, we know will be november 2024. but i don' think it has to be this summer in terms of coordination, i do think that they are probably going to try to be careful t not have an appearance o coordinating in a way that could be criticized as being done for political purposes, but you are right. there i overlap here, in many respects fani willis's investigation is a subset of jack smith's investigation, his being nationwide and hers being, o course, focused on georgia, an in particular, fulton county but, so there has got to b some level at least of sharing of evidence, potentially discussing witnesses so that one case investigation doesn't harm the other investigation and perhaps doin

now, this is the same grand jury that was convened by special counsel jack smith investigating former president donald trump's efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss in an effort to try and stay in power. two black suvs entered the courthouse garage around 9:00 a.m. yesterday, an entrance that would allow witnesses to head up to the grand jury rooms without being seen by the public. the suvs then left the courthouse hours later around 4:30 p.m.. pence's testimony is a significant development in the special counsel's investigation because pence could provide key insights into trump's thinking in the days leading up to the attack on the u.s. capitol. pence advisor mark short spoke briefly about that testimony last night. >> i can't speak about what happens then grand jury but i think it shouldn't be much of a surprise when that day comes and the fact the former president has tried to prevent the testimony based on executive privilege grounds lost again in the appellate court last night, and i think friends of your audience are curious to know what he might testify to. he was pretty

pence's appearance is a testament to the speed at which special prosecutor jack smith is moving with investigation into the former president's intent to obstruct the peaceful transfer of power. pence, who was considering a 2024 presidential run, spent nearly eight hours in front of the grand jury, answering detailed, probative questions from lawyers this is the first time the former vice president shared his own personal experiences to anyone connected with law enforcement. prior to this, he refused a congressional subpoena from the january 6th committee, saying that they had no right to his testimony. today, roughly 30 washington, d.c. residents got to hear his unvarnished account or one that wasn't edited for a book it should not be lost on the public how close trump supporters came to upending american democracy and violently attacking members of congress, including the vice president [ chanting bring out pence ] [ chanting hang mike pence ] >> thanks to the january 6th committee, we learned that insurrectionists came within 40 feet of pence and his family his life was very much i

trump's cash calls have caught the attention of special counsel jack smith the post reports that smith ha fired off a slew of subpoena in recent weeks, all as part o his january 6th investigatio looking to determine if former president president donald trump or his advisers scanne donors by using false claims about voter fraud to raise money. it notes, special counse prosecutors are said to be interested in whether anyone - associated with the fundraisin operation violated wire frau laws, which make it illegal to make false representations ove email to swindle people out of money. on this show, last night, we played new audio of trum advisers discussing the fact that they did not know of an fraud with voting machines while at the same time the president and his allies wer railing about election fraud and using those claims o election fraud to raise over $200 million in the period between the 2020 election loss and trump's eventual exit from office this reporting from th washington post is a big dea here, because it marks a new chapter of the doj's investigation, which is no apparently

pence is now the highest ranking trump white house official to testify in jack smith's probe. we know that the special counsel wanted to question pence about conversations he had with donald trump leading up to january 6. pence rejected trump's demands to block joe biden's victory and that heated phone call the morning of the insurrection. that's when trump called pence a wimp and another vulgar word. >> hang mike pence! hang mike pence! >> not long after that call we watched as trump supporters stormed the capital chanting "hang mike pence" forcing him to run and escape to a secure underground location. for months, pence did refuse to testify in the special counsel's probe niuntil a judge ordered h to do so. he never talked to the select january 6 committee. >> joining us is the former lead vector for the january 6th committee. with us now is tim haffey. you have such good perspective. you were the lawyer for the work that they were trying to do where pence did not speak. good morning. thanks again. >> thanks for having me. >> what makes pence's testimony so critical to jack

trump was fixated on tha mar-a-lago investigation he called jack smith a radical left lunatic, and a bomb thrower. he made a public spectacle o wrestling with his potential guilt. >> we were negotiating in very good faith proper way in order to return some or all of the documents that i openly and in very plain sight brough with me to mar-a-lago from our beautiful white house. >> openly and in plain sight that does not make it, oh, wai a second trump apparently has reason to be worried about all this. we now know the doj is focusin in on trump's allege obstruction down at mar-a-lago and that trump's former secret service agents are reportedl testifying friday before a grand jury as part of that investigation. the new york times reports trump is particularly spooke that his attorney, eva corcoran, was recently ordered to testify before the specia counsel's grand jury evan corcoran is someone who like mike pence, was in th room where it happened multiple times and then some. he had direct contact with trump after trump received a subpoena to return those white house documents, evan cor

but does this indicate that jack smith may be close to done? >> i think it does indicate that they're clearly towards the end of their investigation. how much is left. that's hard to say. pence is certainly, as you say, the top of the food chain, although i want to be clear. i would really doubt that pence is being looked at as a target of this investigation. i think he's pretty fully in the witness category. the one other person that i would say, john, who is really the remaining outlier here that we're wondering or when he will is mark meadows. and meadows, we could sit around and argue all night as to who could be the more significant witness, pence or meadows. there is good arguments on both sides. the bottom line is i'm sure jack smith wants to get meadows in front of that grand jury. he won a motion in front of the court a week or so ago that blew out some of the obstacles to getting meadows in there. so i think that's probably the last really big one that we're aware of that should be happening soon. >> so elie, there were some parameter

federal special prosecutor jack smith, is closing in on another one of donald trump' lawyers. boris apstein, may, in fact, b a lawyer in name only. when it comes to donald trum -- although he's license to practice law he has served primarily as a political adviser to donald trump. jack smith reportedly schedule a meeting with force epstein and the special prosecutor's office for today there isn't any reporting on whether that meeting took place, or how long it might hav lasted the new york times reports tha remains unclear what subject the prosecutors want to discus with mr. epstein but given his expansive ties t mr. trump, mr. epstein is in a position to provide informatio in both of the investigation that mr. smith is overseeing one folks on mr. trump's efforts to retain power afte losing the 2020 election the other centered on hi handling of classified documents after he left th white house. and the washington post report this, boris epstein will still work for trump and is viewed a one of his most truste confidants but he is unlikely to continue to work directly with some

when >> i think jack smith i likely to not want to go forward with any case unless h can hear from the people who were closest to former president trump. that would be mike pence and mark meadows i don't think that you can mak a charging decision one way or another without talking to the to make sure you know all th facts. it may be that neither of thes men tell jack smith he didn' already know maybe he tells them things tha are very valuable, maybe h tells them things that are som ways in exonerating. he has to talk to, them even i only to lock them into their story now under oath because what they can't have happen is to file charges an then a year from now have th case go to trial and have on of the men come in and testify with some story of recen fabrication that is someho exonerating for donald trump by putting them in the grand jury now for better or worse or indifferent, they are locking in their story and i think it's a necessary ste before a decision can be made. it's one of the last things yo do before you make a chargin decision so soon as he's able to ge through the remaini