london he is a nonresident senior associate with the carnegie endowment in washington we have jacob hornberger he is the founder and president of the future of freedom foundation and in philadelphia we crossed to lawrence davidson he is a professor of history at west chester university all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want jacob if i go to you first isn't it time to shut down the cia. absolutely it's long past time it needs to be abolished it is no place in a free society its justification was the cold war that ended a long time ago and it's really at the root of many of the foreign policy was that the american people are now suffering well that was very st paul how do you feel about that. i think that's a gross oversimplification of the story if there are errors that the american government makes it's not due to the cia it's due to the directions they're given and to close it down would cause immense disruption and difficult him building up an agency with comparable competence and replace it ok if i could stay with you so the cia has never