see in the partment of federal goveenerc en cr a 129, this guidance document then by omb director jacob lewyou cano td oa ramor eipantthhere department of energy, department of agriculture or wherever throughout the federal government. this cannot be done. you guys were told repeatedly, consult with the treasury. dtmofaswhthth ne a lent to you repeatedly refused to go to the source of the funding to ask the question if this isoky. us mea ped out, ask some rookie junior counsel to department of energy to give you a quick and dirty opinion you could go aheadnd get this done and get it out the or anthats e - ie yod ea term generically. i think you've been a good witness and been honest with us, but i think you are honestly wrong in thinking that you could coinuei hslpor. digun s ote am rdy to say that we should throw the baby out with the bathwater and just eliminate the loan programs entirely. i want to think very long and hard on hat before iwouldo buu ng me that if we continue the long program and you're the guy they are, you are the straw that stirs the drink in regard to the long program

now, there was a memo that our committee obtained that jacob lew, the former director of omb said, notnly to the department of energy, but as i understand, to every other agency in the department of the federal government, very specifically says, it was circulated a-129 this, to be exact, this guidance documents a center then director of all the jacob lew to heads of department, you cannot do this. under these of those programs, whether the other department of energy, department of agriculture, or where ever throughout the federal government. this cannot be done. and you guys were told repeatedly, consult with the treasury. after all, it was in the department of treasury where the money was being the land. -- being event. and you repeatedly refused to go to the source of the funding to say, to ask the question if this is okay. it just as my colleagues pointed out, as some rookie, junior council in the department of energy to give you a quick and dirty opinion so you could go ahead and get this done and get it out the door. and that's where you, and i say you, and i use that term, mr. f

talk with the attorneys and bankers and department of treasury and maybe even a little sidebar with jacob lew himself and look very carefully because mr. chairman, again i apologize to my colleagues for going back to this issue over and over again, but the gentleman just doesn't seem to get it. that's the reason why i think we just need to make sure that he does get it. and without i yield back. >> at this time i recognize the gentleman from kansas. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, mr. frantz for being aired today. i've heard two different -- we've got this bill. trying to make sure we don't have anything like cilantro. i've heard two different descriptions of the problem. mr. frantz, you cite as inadequate foresight. if you have it again you do it differently. he might not make the lover to use of subordination and of one identification of the problem. the second on both sides here today because we just need a few more processes and procedures that we will and appear today, so they're both wrong. the government has no business having you in section 17 by this section. you are stuck her

now, director of the olympia at that time, jacob lew sat out the circular 812dument,c cadeibols procedures for designing credit programs including loan guarantee programs. it specifically said, the sutee rdto claims should not e casuinn creases the risk to the government and taxpayers. they would apply tod g,d es sir. >> since it does apply and what it does to you all feel like you couldsbrderso ivinor >> mr. chairman, first i would answer your qution in two parts very quickly. the career civil servants deinis us isia legal for us to subordinate under circumstance we were confronted with for the project. so that is the fundamental decision that was tak. atbigi is that i indicated in my oral testimony and this congress has heard from a very senior expert, herb allison, this tool would only be used in tre situations where we have verydisrsed proct i h t asin oral testimony is that in fact by doing it, it's the one last chan we have two father that liquidate -- anu'llubnainistress proct hoha o ouyt ecsta correct? >> that's correct, sir. >> i might also say in the language of the policy act of