jacob wolf lived in brooklyn and he has recently died. interviewed him in brooklyn, and then i interviewed irene in ann arbor. irene is a very, very brilliant woman and a leader in the holocaust movement, but she had no idea that she was traded for anybody, much less an american american kids. the best moment in the book for me, brian, was when i went to honolulu the last time for the long interview with ingrid. i didn't know that she was near death, but it turned out that several months later she did die. we were sitting there, and i showed her the list from the holocaust. i said, you see this list. these were 100 jews who made it out of bergen-belsen when you and your brother and sister and mom and dad went into germany. ingrid's face, her hands came to her face, and she said, what? she marked with her index fingers each name, and when she got to ingrid -- i said, this is the one who was exactly your age, and i showed her a picture of irene. she said, this changes everything for me. it makes everything that happened somewhat worthwhile