it shows up in a different culture. >> james wolfensohn, can you contribute anything else? >> the largest economy in the world will be china soon. in my experience, in terms of them joining into agreements in terms of disclosure, for example, they have been completely absent. when you talk about bidding for international contracts or anything that they are engaged in in terms of their financial arrangements, it is not clear, to put it mildly. if you have a country like china which will be the leading economy in the world, how does your program do with that? >> no one country, no matter how big, is an island. if we all work together to require that of them, i think they have to step up. they are not self-sufficient in everything. they will have to deal with others. if we succumb to their size and operate the way they operate, i think we have made the cancer a terminal one. i would like to look at this problem that has created a cancer for all of us. the good thing is, it can be treated. unlike most cancers. the other thing is, i am hopeful that as they mature and become more

. >> james wolfensohn? >> i cannot remember. >> this illustrates, even when you are up front, it does not necessarily work. let's go back to transparency international. i know there are areas that are working. can you share that with us? >> you have to -- let me just look at two or three countries. there could be many more. there are common things that have been happening in those countries. whether you are looking at botswana. they have had very interesting leaders from the day that they became independent. to this day, in our corruption perception index, botswana is in the top 20. that means people see this country as being quite clean. look at chile. quite a lot happened in the short time. people say, is going to take a long time. i say, i am very impatient. when you look at chile, within a period of about a decade, a lot happened in terms of -- brazil is doing some interesting things. when you look at some of the bribery legislation -- the u.s. has been there a long time ago -- uk, eu, brazil will have

james wolfensohn? >> i cannot remember. this illustrates, even when you are up front, it does not necessarily work. let's go back to transparency international. i know there are areas that are working. can you share that with us? >> you have to -- let me just look at two or three countries. there could be many more. there are common things that have been happening in those countries. whether you are looking at botswana. they have had very interesting leaders from the day that they became independent. to this day, in our corruption perception index, but one it is the top 20. top 20.ana is in the that means people see this country as being quite clean. look at chile. quite a lot happened in the short time. , is going to take a long time. i say, i am very impatient. chile, withinat a. of about a decade, a lot happened in terms of -- brazil is doing some interesting things. when you look at some of the bribery legislation -- the u.s. has been there a long time ago some, eu, brazil will have legislation come into place. norway.

james wolfensohn, can you contribute anything else? >> the largest economy in the world will be china soon. in my experience, in terms of them joining into agreements in terms of disclosure, for example , they have been clearly absent. -- completely absent. when you talk about bidding for international contracts or anything that they are engaged in in terms of their financial arrangements, it is not clear, to put it mildly. if you have a country like china which will be the leading economy in the world, how does your program do with that? >> no one country, no matter how big, is an island. if we all work together to require that of them, i think they have to step up. they are not self-sufficient in everything. they will have to deal with others. if we succumb to their size and operate the way they operate, i think we have made the cancer a terminal one. i would like to look at this problem that has created a cancer for all of us. the good thing is, it can be treated. unlike most cancers. the other thing is, i am hopeful that as they ma