james woolsey, founder of defense for democracies. that is a long business card sir. this. >> i think one has to spy a good deal in modern times in order to avoid getting caught in terrorist attacks and the rest. some of things look like americans spying on other people when you get the initial story from mr. greenwald or from mr. snowden or someone else turns out when you look into them to be something completely different. for example european countries spying on their own people outside europe, and turning the material over to the united states to analyze for them. so you want to be really careful with the initial indication of what is going on, especially if it comes from snowden or greenwald. ashley: is this typical way we do it. tap phones or not tap it, at least monitor what is coming in and out of the german chancellor's phone? is someone doing that to president -- >> i wrote in "the wall street journal" earlier this week or last week, i think it is, taking after the chancellor's cell phone is, smartphone, whatever, is something that a lot of germans and ameri