janice rogers-brown come to mind. >> so is the question that the more independent, perhaps the less collegial? >> yes. >> i think that that's not necessarily the case. but i think again going back to judge edwards initial definition of collegiality where you open with that. collegiality is an environment. if you laid the foundation for that in environment, then, of course, we can all, if we are in a safe environment, toll rat, respect, and even poke fun at each other, including our independence. but if the environment is threatening in some way, then if there is an independent jurist, that adds to the instability in my mind of the branch as a whole. that bench. >> uh-huh. do you think that independence and collegiality are compatible? >> i don't think they are incompatible. i don't think there's a relationship between collegiality and independence. i think they can be judges who are highly independent who are also highly collegial. and in some way, as i think about examples of other courts that i know something about, not in california, not anywhere in the 9th circuit, but the l.a. courts i know something about. sometimes there are cliques of judges, or groups of judges sometimes by politics, s