list, alan ripka, jason oshins. also with us, from florida, terry shoemaker, the attorney for ronald cummings. what about it, anthony list? what do you make of that scenario? >> nancy, the one bit of evidence that really impresses me is the statement the grandmother made, flora hollins, that -- or hollars that in her prison conversation over the phone this young girl described in detail what had happened. and i would put a lot of weight and credibility to that statement from a grandmother, especially under the circumstances in which it was given. we know it's admissible into evidence, and i think it's very strong evidence, stronger than anything else i've heard. and remind me to give you my impression about trickery used by police and whether or not there's a limit on that. but as far as what we were hearing so far, i think the grandmother's telling the truth. >> mr. list, i've got a feeling i already know what you think about trickery by cops, but what concerns me is the letter of the law and the constitution. but