but the one exception was jay gould. gould of the war 1868 which is the subject of the book and and of itself, the struggle of the one freeway vanderbilt came to hate jay gould so much that at some point a reporter asked if he was involved in jay gould and 1872i think in the stock market and he got up and starts yelling he's a damned villain and he yells about that and then when the reporter is going down the steps he comes down and says remember he is a villain. [laughter] and its own characteristic of him he would go to the wall in the business battle and usually because this is business they would be friends. jay gould is a great exception. >> will occur in southern front of a firing squad. you are pretty rough on who the gray-eyed man of destiny as he was not time. you see him as an international criminal. >> and there are national to the people who really admired william walker. but i think this is -- you know, he's fascinating. walker was the most successful of the whole group of filibusters' they called him which

and i opened it up actually with a discussion about stephen jay gould. he wrote a book called the mis- measure of man. the turn of the last century the scientist who were doing craniotomy trade study the brain and the schools, they basically posited a theory and try to support it with signs that basically reinforce their own prejudices, saying that there were certain groups at smaller schools, smaller brains, to justify their view of the superiority of third races. and i think that you could have science that is well done and rigorous. and you have science and reinforce the existing paradigm, prejudice. and i think we saw the animals are such a long time. we were deniers of what was commonsense in front of us. there was this view of the behaviorism, a theory of animals, were animals are kind of mindlessly pursuing food and many opportunities, and they're almost devoid of emotional characteristics and qualities. this was the reigning doctrine in the school of behaviorism for quite a long time. and i think in these last 20 years from especially the last 25