and he said jean wolf. jean wolf writes these thick catholic novels. and i asked why and he said because he is connecting to the deepest stuff. and i asked him why he did not do that and he said because he would have to go back to being catholic. and there was a revelation there that the artistic mind, we recognize that if you're going to write the best stuff you have to reach beyond cleverness and towards the deep stuff of being. what the universe is made of and how we run with the grain of it or fire away across the grain. that is the kind of opportunity for that kind of art. it is offered only to the religious. >> you were forcibly required to become spiritual if you want to become an artist. >> you have to. you have to gain the spirit if you don't have it. >> i don't think that's entirely true. but if you don't, you will not complete the highest level of art. you need to have a certain depth to you. people look at paintings because they want to be changed and they open books because they want to be changed. they want every moment to be intensely tr