earlier he spoke to jeff gundlach and asked him about the low interest rate environment we all have beenking about. jeff: i am worried that the things we all think we have learned -- i have been in the business for over 30 years, so i think i have learned something -- what i've learned has been informed that the only secular decline in interest rates. we are like summer and -- and sex. -- incects. a chinese philosophers and you cannot talk about ice with a summer insect. my guess is the historical norms we have educated ourselves on might not hold during an opposite type of secularly rising interest rate environment. the average default rate on high bonds has been 4% per year. maybe during secularly rising interest rates it will be 8% but i think it will be higher. the rollover of bonds to talk about is simultaneous with rising rates generally -- that is not a prediction, but a premise and the consequence of the premise would be that high yield bonds would probably suppress people in terms of the default rate being out of context. erik: is there a way for you to capitalize on this conclu

alix: then there was jeff gundlach. good luck: i wonder why people don't leverage up negative yields? it seems to me there is him is no way to lose. let's say you leverage up the german two-year a hundred times. we get 20% return. what is the downside? if you can hold it for the two years, even with price volatility along the way -- erik: are you doing that? gundlach: i'm thinking about it. alix: we said to your point,? is this it lisa: it doesn't help. it doesn't make you want to go out and buy bonds that managers are looking to short every which way they can and leverage their bets. rich: the interesting dynamic about when central banks do qe when it starts to succeed, bonds selloff because you're trying to reignite optimism into the economy reignite inflation citations. generally, if you do that bonsall selloff. part of it -- bonds will selloff. out of of it is the comments and part of it is the qb starting to work in the u.s. they are not going to short-circuit. they are not going to stop early. they are going to ke

the bond king jeff gundlach, here's what he told investors. >> basically i turned defensive on the u.sbond market near the end of january which turned out to be very close to the absolute low in yields, and so we are really not that interested in being aggressive in the bond market right now. i think that the message of the market seems to be having rejected the low of the 30-year treasury. watch that very carefully. i think we're going to come to a pivotal point in the market if the 30-year treasury can find its way below 245 again, we'll see the other parts of the bond market rally as well. if it can't get below 245, it would seem we're going to have some of the choppiness that i predicted for 2015. >> our next guest says bonds are not your best bet. joining us now is heather loomis, west director of income at jp morgan private bank. heather, good to have you with us. >> thanks so much. great to be here. >> specifically in the sound bite we were playing the bit when he was addressing the 30-year yield. he also talked about ten-year treasuries more likely to hit 1.5% than 2 preside.5%