devoted two direct democracy, jefferson championing states rights and hamilton national -- jefferson liberally, hamilton economic prosperity. we say all of american history can be -- give us a sense of the clash between philosophies of jefferson and hamilton. >> well, when the nazis overthrew great britain by declaration in 1776 and finally in the battle of yorktown. what the country had done was set upon a democratic experiment. the likes of which outside of a handful of those inordinately the work is not seen, it did not go well. it was not a good experience. on one hand you have the articles of confederation. which were purposefully stripped of willpower. by states rights delegates. and you also have the state governments which are by the standards would have been democratic. and in places like new jersey and pennsylvania, some states of connecticut not as much but you have real, a real kind of participatory democracy of happening. by the standards of the contemporary age, is important to recognize we are talking about you know, this is not even universal, white male suffrage. but looked at

you quote liberally from thomas jefferson, a slave holder, andrew jackson, a slave holder and you --w the trend is upward that it was jefferson's words that became american creed, quoted by lincoln at gettiesburg to free the slaves. quoted by mlk and so many others. it was jefferson's words that eventually led to the election of america's first black president but you also say this of andrew jackson. to him the nation was a sacred thing, he lost his mother and brother in the revolutionary war. risen the highest levels of slave owning society. when you talk about how jackson is obviously not highly admired these days, but again, it's always a move forward throughout the ages. >> yeah, the key question in my mind is are you devoted to -- as a citizen, as a leader, as both, are you devoted to the experiment of the journey toward a more perfect union? >> not a perfect union because the world is not perfectible, but can we move ahead? and when you think about the american revolution which is in and of itself the greatest act of faith you can possibly imagine, we're still fighting that rev