williams, saying the american people needed to know what their government was doing. snowden is facing espionage charges back here in the u.s. we're joined now to discuss with jeffreyownsend, cnn analyst. fran is also a member of cia and department of homeland security external advisory board. good morning to both of you. i want to tick through some of this interview and discuss -- they covered a lot of ground in this interview. let's first listen to the simple and important question, is edward snowden a traitor or is he a patriot? >> have you performed, as you see it, a public service? >> i think the most important idea is to remember that there have been times throughout american history where what is right is not the same as what is legal. sometimes to do the right thing you have to break a law. being a patriot doesn't mean prioritizing service to government above all else. >> sometimes doing the right thing, you have to break a law. he also says, fran, show me the harm that i've done. ever since this came out, he says, three branches of government, they've all seen reforms. show me the harm i've done. >> first, let's talk about the notion of the self aggrandize