. >> the great little madison, or she sometimes said darling little jemmy.you know, one of the founders once wrote that the quote was that they could defeat madison if only it wasn't for dolly. so she was quite a firecracker. >> that's interesting. there was a senator who wrote home to his wife, senator mitchell, in the leadup to the election of 1808, who pointed out what a great advantage madison had over george clinton because dolly was entertaining everyone. >> sure, sure. was there anything about their marriage? it's truly the odd couple when you look at it, in every single way. was there -- but i think that they had a very strong and productive as you alluded to, marriage. anything about the marriage that you felt was particularly inspiring or interesting? >> well, the way it started. i mean, it was, i think, in the beginning a marriage of convenience on dolly's part. i mean, he fell head over heels. but i think she saw in him someone who would be a good support for her son. someone that would kind of provide that baseline level of sanity that all of us