jen o'malley dillon. >> he was more the strategist. but i mean, these are characters who in adifferent kind of campaign if nthey were more hungry for the camera themselves . >> what are you saying. >> iset a different kind of campaign or, i didn't say and . >> this is huge cultural shift and part of it is joe biden is so well-known and the immediacy that people feel with candidates now because of social media i think sort of the personalities around the court are somewhat less compelling particularly when there like relatively reclusive. >> is the elephant in the room, donald room and trump doesn't leave much space for anybody else in the'political conversation. he's not president anymore but the coverage of him, it's so intense still and i get why he might run again. obviously he has a grasp of the party that he led as president still but i think there's just not space for much in the way of reporting generally about the biden administration because the curiosity is still so deep about trump and n trumpism in the political culture mor