jerry of ben & jerry. everyone is here. but in washington, d.c. right now is my colleague chris matthews, host of "hardball." chris, have you ever heard of a political campaign event during campaign season where you could only get in if you already support the candidate? >> well, i guess we have to squeeze 20,000 people into 1,500 seats. you get pretty extreme about it. i haven't seen anything like this before. you're right. but i'll tell you something. i've been listening to the guy tonight, as i always do. he's running against the republican party. which is certainly interesting for a candidate for a republican nomination, any party's nomination. running against the republicans. he's running against the iraq war. i mean, he's running against the trade policies in the republican party that he says are costing us jobs. it's not against obama as much as against his own political party that he's chosen to run in, which is going to tell us a lot about where this campaign's headed by next november. this year, the november election could possibly, plausibly have a nominee of a party who's run against the party and has beaten it. that's possible. >> and i talked to a bunch of people today. i probably talked, chris, to i don't know, three dozen, four dozen trump supporters. and to a person it was -- people don't think particularly highly of the institution of the republican party. we know how much the establishment as we call it is hated. but also people basically -- a huge part of it is the guy is a celebrity. i mean, a lot of people are there because they think i like donald trump, i've seen him on tv, i've read his books, i think, you know, the country's screwed and he's a successful guy. >> you know, i think there's a lot of showbiz and a lot of those years on "the apprentice" where he really built an audience and he's got a lot of interesting kind of charm. he's very funny. you may not like him at all. people don't like even hearing you think he's funny. but i sit here with people, we laugh. a lot of the time we laugh because it's so over the top, it's so outrageous what he says. and i think this political correctness, he says things most people don't say. and it has a certain edge to it and it can be bad and dirty and ugly even sometimes. i've pointed that out. we've all pointed it out. but there's a certain irascibility to it that jumps away from listening to martin o'malley or one of the other candidates. you go yeah, yeah, yeah. here's a big difference. hillary clinton's positioned herself we know as on the center left. >> go ahead, get him out of here. >> and cruz has positioned himself on the hard right of the republican party. where has donald trump positioned himself? in a totally different world of nationalism, of anger, of entertainment. you put all the pieces together. he's selling something that hasn't been sold before, and that's why he's got the crowd. >> i guess as we're watching here, the are you a trump supporter test has proved to be less than foolproof over the last 45 minutes, perhaps not shockingly. that -- there are a lot of people that got in there to protest. >> he wants them -- >> of course he does. chris matthews. >> good luck with the show. i think you built your crowd tonight, chris. >> well, we'll see if i get disrupted by any protesters or heckled or anything like that. donald trump is still speaking at this hour. he talked directly about bernie sanders, said he would love to run against him. although bernie sanders has been drawing huge crowds. we went and checked out his campaign offices. we're going to talk about the bernie sanders phenomenon including an interview i had with the man himself. just after the break. >> this is what happens. and this is why we lose control of our country, folks. this is why. we lose control of our country. because everybody's afraid to do anything. the police, who are these phenomenal people who are totally mistreated, by the way, totally mistreated -- [ cheers and applause ] and they really are. they're afraid to lose their job over stuff. can you get them out of here? get them out. >>> anti-p.c. you can say anything about me. it is what it is. >> just before the rally started i spoke with some donald trump supporters streaming into burlington flint center by the thousands all gathered to see the man up close, donald trump. the line was filled with a heady mix of donald trump supporters, sanders fans, a lot of people who just came to see the show. joining me now the former governor of the great state of vermont, msnbc political analyst howard dean. howard, how are you? >> i'm great. [ cheers and applause ] >> you and i have talked about this. chris matthews has made a point about he is running full scale against the republican party. >> he is. >> i remember the speech you gave in california when you were running for president where you said what i want to know is -- and you beat the stuffing out of the democratic party. you got up there and said why is the democratic party doing x and y and z particularly over the iraq war. >> right. >> you very much ran against the party successfully. and ultimately the party had its revenge on you in certain ways. >> yes, they did. >> and the question -- you know, part of the question here is does the party have -- as a man who ran a political party, does the party get to have its revenge on donald trump? >> well, they're going to try. they're going to go after him. the closer he gets to the nomination, he's getting closer every day, the more scared the washington republicans get. they're terrified by this. >> you were talking to me downstairs that obviously vermont has gotten the margins in, say, presidential elections has grown year over year. but there are still folks here who are conservatives. i talked to a bunch of them today. you said you were able in this state to win some of those people when you were governor here. >> bernie won a lot of them. i remember the year after did i civil unions i barely got my governorship re-election. bernie got every vote my opponent got in the more conservative part of the state. there is a vote of working-class people here. the thing that makes us different, though, is we don't have a lot of people that are way out there like this governor of maine or somebody like that that are off the charts. our working people are just thoughtful, decent people and they may be more conservative socially than others but they're not crazy. >> well, it also strikes me you've got a situation in vermont and maine, you've seen it in new hampshire, there's been a lot of attention paid to particularly new hampshire about opioids and levels of addiction. but also just the basic economic circumstances of the white working class in a place like vermont, a place like maine, a place like new hampshire, something bernie sanders talks about, in some ways what donald trump in his own way is talking about. >> the difference is donald trump is scapegoating large groups of people in order to appeal to his constituents. that is a mistake, and you cannot get away with that here. >> you have not seen that work in vermont. >> it will not work here. >> why not? what is it about the political culture? >> because we all know each other. no, we do. we know each other. >> i know. >> negative campaigning does not work very well here. and the reason is -- >> because you've got to see the guy the next day. >> not only that. you're likely to know the other person and you know they're not a jerk or whatever the negative campaign is. so if you call somebody a jerk, guess who they're going to think is the jerk. the person who's rung the ad. >> now, here's the question for you. and i know you're a hillary clinton supporter. this is the question for bernie sanders, guy says i've never run a negative ad in my life, it's not what i do. it's served him very well in the political culture here, right? we're watching the opposite of that in donald trump who all he does is insult people. he comes out of new york politics where that gets you pretty far. but the question becomes can bernie sort of pivot to rung a campaign where he can credibly attack hillary clinton when it's not in his blood? >> i don't think he wants to do that. and do i think -- bernie is a terrific politician. he really is. he's added an enormous amount to what i think is an essential debate, which is the issue of income inequality and the fate of the working class in this country. that's a legitimate debate. he's pushing the whole debate in the direction it wants to go in. i think that's what he wants to do. he's a guy with a lot of integrity. he's not going to sully himself with dirty campaigns. there's a difference between comparing voting records and running a negative campaign. i don't think bernie's running a negative campaign. >> he's not. we'll see how this develops. howard dean's going to stay with us at the vermont pub and brewery here in burlington. still ahead, my interview with bernie sanders. stay with us. [ cheers and applause ] >> and you know why? because i will have told him that if you build that plant you're going to have a 35% tax for every single vehicle that comes across the border. if you need a reason to start celebrating super bowl 50 early - i'll give you two. get a large,1-topping pizza for only 50 cents when you order any large pizza at regular menu price. better ingredients. better pizza. better football. papajohns.com say they'll save youfor every by switching,surance companies you'd have like a ton of dollars. but how are they saving you those dollars? a lot of companies might answer "um..." or "no comment". then there's esurance - born online, raised by technology and majors in efficiency. so whatever they save, you save: hassle, time, paper work, hair tearing out and, yes, especially dollars. that's auto and home insurance for the modern world. esurance. backed by allstate. click or call. >>> great guy. the father is like this great guy. his son was the apple of his eye. young boy. walking down the street. right in front of his house. going home to see his father. and he gets shot in the face three times by an illegal immigrant that wasn't supposed to be here. or the woman -- or the woman in los angeles who got raped, sodomized. she's a 65-year-old veteran. raped, sodomized and killed. >> in a country of 330 million and with 12 million undocumented immigrants, donald trump takes a moment in every stump speech to focus on a few incidents of crime trying to communicate to people that crime in america is to blame on illegal immigrants, undocumented workers. well, i got a chance to talk to bernie sanders this week about both the trump phenomenon but the broader thing that's happening in this election we've seen on both sides, which is basically a crisis of authority in american life, a lack of trust in the parties, in the institutions, and how you run a race under those conditions. he had some very interesting things to say about that. stick around. >>> eventually hillary clinton's going to be the nominee. you guys are going to pack up the tent. you believe you're going to win this race? >> yes. >> you see this like -- and do you feel like people here are ready to do what it will take to make that happen? >> yes. absolutely. i don't think we can undermine populism. i think that for a very long time the clinton brand, with all too respect to the secretary, has been one that leaves a lot of americans out. and i think there are a lot of people in this country who -- some of them are lining up for trump tonight. they felt that the levers of economic and social mobility that they're entitled to as citizens haven't been afforded to them. and the clintons have been able to distract those people for a long time. >> i spent the early part of my day here in burlington at the bernie sanders national campaign headquarters, which is a stone throw from city hall where bernie's political career first got off the ground as a mayor of burlington back in 1981. there is no doubt staffers and volunteers not only believe bernie sanders will win this election, they seem to be relying on him to pull off the upset. i sat down with the senator from the great state of vermont and we talked about whether his approach, addressing the injustices of working people, will be enough not only to win over the democratic electorate, to turn many republican voters, even trump supporters, his way. >> the american people are angry and they're frustrated. all right? the median male worker today is making $700 less in real inflation adjusted for dollars than he made 42 years ago. women 1,000 bucks less than in 2007. people are angry. they're worried about their kids. what i am saying is okay, you have a right to be angry. let's create an economy that works for all of us. we've got to get to the root cause, which has a lot to do with wall street, greed, and corporate greed. let's stand together and take them on. what trump is saying is yeah, you're angry, and you know what the cause of your problem is? it's the latino tomato picker over there who's making 8 bucks an hour. or it's that muslim engineering student. we're going to keep them out of this country. that's the old-fashioned scapegoating. so i think he is tapping into an anger scapegoating and doing what demagogues always do. >> that's the question. the question is is this thing -- you were talking to chuck todd about the possibility of getting those people as sanders voters. and i've heard -- i've got some folks who work in iowa who say they will encounter people that were ron paul people and they're now bernie sanders people. you poll very highly among republicans in vermont. >> because i got 25% of the vote from republicans in my last election. >> but then there's a question about the way politics works now. because when you talk about your material interests are this, right? politics have gotten very tribal, very polarized. there's this real kind of demographic fear that's playing among a lot of what we used to call the white working class. that's a real thing, right? that's not something that's just a malleable -- >> what we have got to do, this is what you have to do, as you know. my whole life i have been pro choice. i am pro gay rights and so forth. and what you have to say to people, okay -- and this is why i went to liberty union. liberty university a few months ago. look, we disagree on gay rights. we disagree on abortion issues. can we at least agree that income and wealth inequality, the grotesque level in this country, is a moral issue? can we stand together? >> right. >> should we work together to end the fact that we have a high rate of childhood poverty of almost any major country on earth. can we work together on those issues? so the point is reaching out to people saying look, we do have disagreements but your kid can't afford to go to college. >> there's also this dynamic that there's a loophole that trump has exploited which is the gap between the donor class and the republican party in the base. and there's three issues where he's done this. medicare and social security, where the donor class wants to cut it and he says i don't want to cut it. because republican voters don't want to cut it at all. trade. nafta, right? the donor class loves these trade deals. rank and file republicans don't. and immigration. the donor class wants comprehensive immigration reform and rank-and-file republicans don't want it. do you see similar issues in the democratic party where there's this gap between what the else of the party want, what the donor class of democrats want and what rank-and-file -- >> before i get to the democrats let me say a word on trump. what trump also wants is huge tax breaks for the wealthiest people in the country. don't forget about that. >> oh, he wants lots of things the donor class also loves. >> he doesn't want to raise the minimum wage. and in the debate, the republican debate he said wages in america are too high. >> right. >> in terms of what you have, i think the division in the democratic party, and i think i'm trying to bridge that, is on one hand you have folks who say look, gay rights is terribly important, women's rights is terribly important, climate change is terribly important. i agree. but you know what? you have to pay attention to the fact that working people are struggling, that real wages are going down, that their kids can't go to college. you have to pay attention to the need to rebuild the trade union movement in this country. so it can't just be gay rights or women's rights. it has got to be trying to create an economy that works for all of our people. >> what is part of the frustration, right? is that you can say -- come before them, say i'm bernie sanders, i believe in these things. i think people believe you when you say that because you do believe in them. your record shows that. this is not a con job. but there's so little faith that anyone can change this. when we're talking about 40 years of the way the global economy is -- >> yes. >> in some ways it's like great, good for you. but what are you going to do? >> can i tell you a happy story? >> yes. >> invisible times. let me tell you a happy story. when i was elected to be mayor of burlington, vermont i won by ten points. 1981. two years later we almost doubled the voter turnout. you know why? because we showed people -- and i'm not here boasting -- that we would stand with working people, low-income people. we did things that would improve their lives. so they said you know, maybe government is not such a dumb idea, maybe we're going to come out and vote. it's a vicious circle. if, for example, we would be able to raise the minimum wage tomorrow to 15 bucks an hour, millions of working people would say gee, maybe government does make a difference. provide health care to all people. yeah. government. but if you don't do that and you say vote for me, why? why should i vote for you? >> bernie sanders on the trail down the stretch. great to see you. >> all right. here in burlington, vermont, the vermont pub and brewery, which is right in the heart of the political capital of america for the evening, we are here just a block away from where donald trump finished up his speech. across that plaza there is the flynn center. that's where donald trump finished up about an hour and 15. he's making his way through the crowd after periodic interruptions by folks who had gotten in there. he'll come out and be greeted by protesters. there's the sanders campaign headquarters where we talked to some folks earlier. as i said before, we've got the mount rushmore of the state of vermont right here tonight in the pub. we've got former governor howard dean, who is here. and of course we've got ben and jerry of ben & jerry's ice cream. big bernie sanders supporters. we will be back with much more on the trump rally here in the heart of bernie country in just a bit. stick around. >>> howard dean and the one and only charlie pearce will all be here live at the vermont pub and brewery. do not go anywhere. [ cheers and applause ] >>> we're back here in burlington, vermont. you know, in maine, one of vermont's northern neighbors, there's a republican governor by the name of paul la page who just landed himself in hot water after recent comments. responding to a question about the heroin epidemic al at a town hall last night he blamed out of state drug dealers. listen to this. >> these are guys named d money, smoothie, shifty, these type of guys that come from connecticut and new york. they come up here, they sell their heroin, then they go back home. incidentally, half the time they impregnate a young white girl before they leave. which is a real sad thing because now we have another issue tha
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