the other was a man named jerry wiesner. jerry was jack kennedy's science advisor, 25 years older than i. but it was his baby too, he loved it. he just happened to be the president of mit. we had license to do things, which, you know, i can be a little revisionist and tell you it's all because we were smart. but some of it is 'cause we had a lotta space. >> does that space to be that innovative exist today? clearly, things are happening. clearly things are being built, clearly apple comes up with a new product every year. >> yeah, but apple's new product every year, which is absolutely true, i use nothing but apple products. but apple, if you had to think of a company that's contributed zero to science and technology, it's apple. so yes, they're a creative company, but they don't help in the sense of being an open, sort of very different research lab. >> you had naysayers. some of them were in powerful places. clifford stoll in newsweek wrote, and i quote, "nicholas negroponte, director of mit media lab, predicts it will soon