let's bring in our panel of experts, nbc -- and former watered a special prosecutor jill wine-banks. igative reporter for talking points, hunter walker, an msnbc contributor and new york times justice times reporter, katie benner. jill, you know you are my go-to here. let's start with your reaction to the committee's plan to issue these criminal referrals. this is something that's really out of the box for us. is someth>> it is the first tit is the first time we've ever had a president, or a former president, who has done in office, and since leaving office, so many criminal acts. i think it was pretty much assumed for many weeks now that this would be the outcome. but now we know for sure that it is the outcome. i think that it is, as you pointed out, it is not legally compulsory for the department of justice to do anything with the referral. they will make the decision independently based on the law and based on the facts. but based on what we've seen, the law and the facts come together here to show that all three of those crimes have been committed by donald trump, and by others a

jill wine-banks, hunter walker, katie benner, thank you so much for being with us tonight.eciate it. we'll continue our coverage of this breaking news next with congressman gerry connolly, a member of the house oversight committee. committee. it's time for theraflu hot liquid medicine. powerful relief so you can restore and recover. theraflu hot beats cold. hi! need new glasses? get more from your benefits at visionworks! how can you see me squinting? i can't! i'm just telling everyone! hey! use your vision benefits before they expire. visionworks. see the difference. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. ♪things are getting clearer♪ ♪i feel free to bare my skin♪ ♪yeah, that's all me♪ ♪nothing and me go hand in hand♪ ♪nothing on my skin♪ ♪that's my new plan♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ achieve clearer skin with skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 4 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. ♪it's my moment, so i just gotta say♪ ♪nothing is

joining me now is jill wine banks, former assistant watergate prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. d. you know, i'm not a lawyer, but i read that ruling as nothing less than a dragging. because what they were essentially saying to judge cannon is, you made up a thing that isn't real. that because trump is a former president, when a search warrant gets executed on him, that should be treated differently as if it was executed on joy reid or jill wine banks. what did you make of that ruling? >> everything in the opinion, and it's a per curiam, which means all three judges agreed to everything in it. it's not signed by any one in particular. and that includes the chief justice of the 11th circuit, judge pryor, who is from one of the most conservative backgrounds ever. all three are republican appointees. and they all basically said the law is the law, and we are sticking with the law. they said none of the things that the judge did, judge cannon, have any relevance to the cases that we have ever seen before. and it would entitle every single person who has ever had a search to do the sa

>> we will see if that happens in the new year as we go through that in the news thank you to jill wine-banks - have a great 25th. coming up, from twitter to crypto two out of this world and near, we are breaking down the year in tech the year in tech the unknown is not empty. it's a storm that crashes, and consumes, replacing thought with worry. but one thing can calm uncertainty. an answer. uncovered through exploration, teamwork, and innovation. an answer that leads to even more answers. mayo clinic. you know where to go. ♪ this rental car is so boring to drive. let's be honest. the rent-a-car industry is the definition of boring. and the reason can be found in the name itself. rent - a - car. you don't want a friend. you want the friend. you don't want a job. you want the job. the is always over a. that's why we don't offer a car. we offer the car. ♪ sixt. rent the car. flu symptoms hit harder than the common cold. so it takes the right tool for the job... to keep it together. now there's new theraflu flu relief with a max strength fever fighting formula. the right tool for long lasting f

but a lot of what she said, isn't that's holding water so far. >> jill wine-banks? >> well it's hard being the last when you have three billion people perceiving you. all really good witnesses. i would say, just follow and with like him said, which is how everything into relates. and how everything supports. and that all of these witnesses are republicans who worked in the white house. they are people that donald trump chose, they are not people who are opposed to him, they were his supporters. so i think that the power of what the committee put together, and how they organized it, and how they put it into chapters that really lay out the various crimes, and the evidence supporting it. and the overarching conspiracy. but then again it comes down to, what joyce started with, which is the obstruction. and the obstruction was so dramatic, and so proven, and i am so reminded of. during -- it was always the obstruction is worse than the crime. here the crime is far worse than the obstruction. but when you're burning things in a fireplace, that happens in -- two. it was i

now to discuss this, to msnbc contributors were also co-hosts of the sisters in law podcast, jill wine-banks, who's assistant watergate special prosecutor, and we also have former u.s. attorney, joyce vance. thank you both for being here. jill, let me start with you. donald trump was not a defendant in this trump organization fraud case. but his name came up repeatedly throughout the trial. a prosecutor said in the closing statement trump, quote, knew exactly what was going on. so, how on earth did he not get charged in connection to this case? >> well, that is such a good question. but in a traditional way, when a corporation is indicted, it is the corporation that is indicted. the personal benefit to weisselberg is why he was personally indicted. and why he pled guilty. his testimony was not as forthcoming as i think the plea deal should have and could have demanded. i hope he won't get full credit first testimony. because he went out of his way to help his former boss, actually, not even his former boss, as i understand it, he is still working at the trump organization. i think the cumula

along with, us jill wine-banks who served as an assistant watergate prosecutor. coast of the sisters in law podcast, by the, way and jennifer rubin a washington post columnist. all three are msnbc analyst. good evening to all of you! thank you for joining us. let's talk about these three potential charges that we are hearing about that help or not try to, they are more pearls because the committee cannot charge anybody. jill, let me start with you. watergate was a slightly different situation. but here, we have this committee that i said that we've got thousands of pages, tens of thousands of pages of documentation, thousands of hours of testimony. we believe you should pursue these charges of insurrection, obstruction of official proceedings and conspiracy to defraud the united states. so tell us how this works mechanically. >> it's a meaningless legal gesture, in the sense that it has no compulsory attached to it. it is important, in terms of what the american people think, and i think that if they don't make a referral, that people will then argue, republicans

. >> andrew weizmann, neal katyal and jill wine-banks, thank you very much for joining our discussiononight. >> you're welcome. >> thank you. coming up yell professor tim snyder who recently spent time with president zelenskyy will join us next on ukrainian presidents historic speech to congress. professor tim snyder is next. we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? that they can sell their life insurance policy for cash? so they're basically sitting on a goldmine? i don't think they have a clue. that's crazy! well, not everyone knows coventry's helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. even term policies. i can't believe they're just sitting up there! sitting on all this cash. if you own a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. even a term policy. for cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. someone needs to tell them, that they're sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea! hey, guys! you're sitting on a goldmine! come on, guys! do you h

jill wine-banks this is fantastic. i want you to weigh in here. what you think there was a limiting piece was and why. how we read the report and how we reading the transcripts themselves and whether this notion is that everyone needs a pardon mark meadows or burning documents in his office. what's being burned was being concealed. this isn't the last name this is sure that the special counsel is playing very close attention to her as well. the point of mark meadows and cipollone those who seem to have the keys to the kingdom. again and again their names as the people in the room talking to donald trump perhaps they're able to work through those issues that prevented them from testifying before the committee. and also the committee and it breaks the criminal prosecution. they can compel a witness and it goes to witnesses are critically important. and i think it's a and crucial testimony. and it is most of the explosive revelation and the scene in the car and it was a traumatic piece of testimony. that was the four of the committees for donald trum

. >> andrew weizmann, neal katyal and jill wine-banks, thank you very much for joining our discussion. >> you're welcome. >> thank you. coming up yell professor tim snyder who recently spent time with president zelenskyy will join us next on ukrainian presidents historic speech to congress. professor tim snyder is next. essor tim snyder is next (brent) people love subaru just because it stands for much more than just a car. (vo) through the share the love event, subaru retailers have supported over seventeen hundred hometown charities. (phil) have i witnessed and seen the impact of what we do? you bet i have. (kathryn) we have worked with so many amazing causes and made a difference. (vo) by the end of this year, subaru and our retailers will have donated over two hundred and fifty million dollars to charity. (brent) it's about more than just selling cars. (phil) the subaru share the love event going on now. hello, world. or is it goodbye? you know, it seems like hope and trust are in short supply. [clap] now, as businesses we can blame and shame. or... [whistles] we can make a change

joining me now, jill wine-banks, former assistant, watergate special prosecutor, msnbc contributor, and author of the watergate girl. my fight for truth and justice against a criminal president. and -- former acting solicitor general of the united states and msnbc legal analyst. thank you both very much for coming back to the sunday show. jill, many people are bound to see parallels between nixon and trump, it's a january six committee does send criminal referral to the justice department, but, is that any parallel? >> it is -- but let me start by saying, your introduction was a great opening statement for the case against donald trump. you could be -- it's really bad. i think that what's happening here, unlike watergate where we sent a referral to congress saying here are some impeachable offenses, this would be the reverse. it has no legal consequences because the department of justice would act on the basis of the facts and the law, and they will not be persuaded by any referral in particular. it will draw their attention to the public interest in the case. i think the difference bet

winning journalist who reported on donald trump's 2005 tax return and author of the big cheat, and jill wine banks, cohost of the podcast, sisters in law. great to have you both. david, obviously, let me start with you. you have been reporting on taxes, tax policy, and tax returns, and tax fraud, and tax cheats for decades. it's only been a few hours. but give me your take so far on what we're learning from the tax returns. >> well, the most important thing is that there are clear badges of fraud in his returns. and yet he wasn't audited. the reason is a curious irs practice. if an auditor were given trump's tax return and believed that an audit would show all sorts of improper deductions, even totally unjustified expenses filed, but it wouldn't be enough to cause his tax obligation to go positive, to actually pay taxes, they probably wouldn't audit him, even though in future years it might mean that he would pay more in taxes. it's because of the way the irs does its quality metrics for audits. and he understands that game and knows how to play it. >> wait, i don't think i quite understood that.

jennifer reuben, opinion columnist for the washington post, and former watergate prosecutor, jill wine-banks, msnbc contributor and co-host of the hashtag sisters in law podcast. great to see you all. nbc reporter weijia uses committee meeting twice this weekend, jill, to come to an agreement. why do you think they are still debating which charges to recommend for trump, and what do you imagine those debates to look like? >> i think they are still debating because this is a new and unprecedented activity for any congress to do, because there are arguments on both sides that you can logically make. i think that allowing him to not be referred will give a good argument to republicans that there was no referral because there were no crimes. they couldn't find it, even after their extensive search. so that is an answer that i find totally unacceptable, and therefore i think they must make the referrals of anything, even though it has no legal consequences. the department of justice is, number one, on this on already, number two, they will be getting all the evidence that the committee has and th

joining me now msnbc contributor, former watergate prosecutor jill wine-banks.ashtag sisters in law podcast and author of the watergate girl book. and political investigations reporter at the guardian, hugo lowe. it is good to see you both. and i know we are not surprised anymore, i know that sometimes he says these things in order to get attention. in some ways i'm sort of less interested and him and what it means about him that he is going for the suspension of the constitution than i am interested in living gullible moot where the political figure says out loud is taken seriously. >> it is so appalling in when it first read, it was something that had been posted by chris dancing. had been anyone else, i would've thought it was fake news. because it came from a reliable source, and then checked it and it was true. . but have to say i was shocked even though you say you cannot be shocked in the more, this is shocking. this is beyond saying that i won. this is saying we need to immediately undo the election. we have to have either a new election or just declare