jim baker, in turn, very carefully controlled the staff.at you needed to know to get your job done. there were just a handful of, a small group of people around jim baker that knew everything that was going on. therefore, if there was any kind of leak, or any kind of trouble, jim baker knew exactly where it came from. consequently, there wasn't any. he actually brought order and he brought discipline to a white house that needed it at a time in 1992 when things were pretty tough for president bush. i think that donald trump, president trump's in the same place now. he's having a hard time getting his administration running smoothly, partly because this is new to him. it seems to be now a lot of the people around him in the white house. and some discipline needs to be brought. and it needs to be brought differently. >> what would that be? if i may just jump in, what advice? what would that discipline look like? what advice would you have for this current white house? >> well, i think that president trump needs to sit down and figure out who'

think about when jim baker, who was everybody's choice as -- the gold standard, jim baker swapped jobsn regan, the treasury secretary. regan came in, he was completely ill suited for the job. and the next thing you know, it was no coincidence that a harebrained -- scheme was cooked up in the white house basement and became the iran-contra scandal. never would have happened on james baker's watch. i think these guys are being a little modest. charlie: the money question. what would you change if you were now chief of staff for donald trump? >> i would try to enforce a rule for the president and everyone else in the white house, taste your words before you spit them out. or tweet them out. because the president's words make a big difference. they make a difference in the white house staff. the bureaucracy. the executive branch of government. congress. and the world. and so i would want discipline around the words that are spoken, by the president, and subordinately by any anybody at the white house staff. which actually gives more discipline over don't leak. >> i think probably the first

jim baker as his chief of staff, a really skilled, shrewd political insider, ed meese, a counselor todent, and michael deaver in charge of the media operations. they ran the white house. >> the assassination attempt and aftermath elevated ronald reagan's popularity to a new high. the latest nbc news/associated press poll shows his job rating jumped ten points. >> reagan understood that he was getting this sort of sympathy reaction. everybody was rooting for him all of a sudden because they didn't want him to die. they didn't want to lose a president. so without missing a step, he goes right into what the message is. we've got to get this tax and spending bill passed and we've got to do it now. >> mr. speaker, the president of the united states. >> it was just like the movies. reagan was a true american hero. >> the president looking very jovial, very healthy. >> i was seated in the well of the house there when he was addressing congress. it was magic. everybody was so grateful that his life had been spared. it was a stirring moment. >> if he wants them to stop, they're not going to st

>> kind of. >> he's the boss. >> jim baker, remember, was one of three. he was chief of staff. he had to deal with the long time friend -- >> but no one was frepd -- they were afraid of baker. >> the reason he was successful is that man was damn competent. he did a good job. he earned the president's trust. if you say, i've got the title therefore i've got the goods and he was taken for for a test drive -- >> you have to come to work very early to be president's chief of staff because you have done the most damage by 6:30 in the morning. physical copy he goes war. impulsively. and it is done. the day's news is over. cheap trigger finger. >> what does he with that phone may undo what you spent the last week trying to build up to. >> transgender people, good-bye, by sun up. >> it appears today as if he is giving general kelly the kind of authority maybe that he would need. but i'm looking at my watch. to see how long it lasteds. i believe donald trump, 70, 71 years old, used to working this way his entire adult life -- i hope he succeeds -- >> thank you, you're an honest man. >> n

someone who gets a lot of credit, jim baker in the reagan days. not a reagan day, brought in by reagan because of his republican establishment. d.c. experience. what jim baker said, focus on the chief or you can focus on the "of staff." those who focused on the "of staff" have done pretty well. what does he mean? >> kelly should be looking up or down, control trump, control everything else. it may actually help calm some of the president's more erratic tendencies if he controls everything else. trump reacted poorly every time something emerged from the white house he wasn't controlling the message of. if kelly manages to have order over everything else, runs a tight ship everywhere else, maybe less for trump to react to. it's a better bet he might be able to do that with success, because he is their boss. able to do that managing up the chain. like we've said several times you can't control what trump's going to do in thor hours and no one is talking to him. on twit are i mean. >> a good thing about a general, he will be up at 4:00 in the morning

jim baker has a resource that he could fight with a lot. jim baker is no fool. and, you know, with trump, also, part of trump's strategy is to let the secretaries of state one thing, let him say something else when he talks face to face, or makes his own decisions. that's part of the game. tillerson knew that going in. he has no problem with donald trump. he has no problem with nikki haley. host: well, there have been some stories about some rather heated arguments inside the white house between the secretary of state and because of his inability to get key appointees in the state department. caller: that's an administrative issue, agree, and also, i remember secretary of state george schulz had big-time problems. he was the one kind of moderate -- on against a liberal conservative -- including oliver north and so forth. he ultimately won, and he points out that he basically saved the presidency in i ran contra by getting him to fire north and other people, and none of the conservatives liked him, but he had no problem. he completed his tenure of secretary of st

and jim baker helped us and finally it all got turned around and looks like we're going.t was weird. >> yeah. it's about time. >> it was a weird fight. >> i raise that because i am glad it's behind you and they picked the right person to do it. it also says to me, in your business especially, people don't really appreciate how many changes, how many not re-writes. >> same thing. >> but it takes a while to get the projects right before stuff ever goes to the ground. >> yeah. >> where do you find the patience? >> well we've on the cost control and all of that we've maintained. we've figured out a way to do that so our buildings come in right on budget or close. which isn't known. when someone looks at our building they assume it's more expensive. disney hall hard cost were $207 million that was the budget. there was a lot of cost to add to it, the problems that cost them money had nothing to do with me. but i any it's important to be real. maintain a reality when you build a building. people's clients have a reality, understand that. so i think we can work with those tough

i don't know if kelly is a jim baker, quite frankly. >> but chris, beyond just palace intrigue, can that environment produce productivity from the white house on behalf of the business of the country? >> look, there's nothing wrong with having ideological battles and robust debate in a white house. i mean as rahm emanuel told me in my book, "the gate keepers," he said look, you've got white hats, black hats, a battle for the soul for the presidency, you want that kind of creative tension in the white house. but at the end of the day when the president makes a decision, everybody's has to fall in line behind the white house chief of staff to execute that agenda. and we're just not seeing that in this white house. this has been amateur hour from day one. >> i'm curious, you've got general john kelly. he's inheriting this white house which operates in a very nontraditional way to put it nicely. you now have scaramucci joining jared kushner, steve bannon, kellyanne conway who have been reporting to the president. do you think general kelly can establish some sort of rank and order here? that

jim baker was the most consequential secretary of state because he took office at a time of historic change and molded and channeled that change in very benign directions. other secretaries of state have operated under much more difficult circumstances, in the depths of the cold war where there was difficulty to get things done. there were some secretaries of state who found themselves outmaneuvered politically. host: let me share a couple of excerpts with our audience. james dobbins will be with us for the next 30 minutes. "obama was the most intellectual and probably the smartest but also the most controlling." guest: obviously, that is a caricature and slight exaggeration. but if you think about the way went to war with iraq, we now know there was never an discussion within the bush administration on whether we should go to war with iraq. , colin powell, george tenet all say there was no point at which the president asked them directly, should we do this? there was clearly a march toward an objective never formally debated in a concerted, structured way. in the obama administratio

but you know it's it's it's not at all clear that john kelly is a jim baker. story klee how have generals down and they struggle. i think the record is not encouraging the last third general to be white house chief was alexander haig under gerald ford. and who've stayed on after richard nixon resigned. he lasted if couple of days over one month. then interestingly gerald ford one of the reasons is that ford had a. a white house a model that was very much like donald trump so it was a free for all with people coming and going. in and out of the oval office it was a disaster called it spokes of the wheel with. gerald ford at the center. are within a month he was begging his old pal don rumsfeld to come in and and to exert. a assert this a plan which he did. what james baker is a legendary chief of staff said it's good to focus on the star off base of the jo? and not the chief base of the job was i going to maine for chuck yeah do you well that's that's the danger here is that. you can't be an imperial trees don regan who was. famously. james baker's successor wa

jim baker and leon panetta i think shared something these guys also have, which is they were grounded were comfortable in their own skin. they'd been around the block. they can walk into the oval office, close the door, and tell the president what he did not want to hear. as dick cheney put it to me when he was jerry ford's-- a terrific chief staff for jerry ford-- he said you can't have a tough thing you have to tell the president and have eight or nine guys sitting around saying, "it's your turn to tell him." you have to have one person to do it. we do not have a chief of staff as we speak in the white house who can tell the president no. >> . >> rose: is there anybody in the white house who can tell the president no? >> i sometimes wonder if donald trump could find the civilian equivalent of jim mattis, who evidently has the gravitas to change the president's mind-- >> or tell him no. >> on torture, for example-- >> general mcmaster. >> he needs to find somebody like that because history is littered with the wreckage of presidencies that tried to govern this way-- including jerry f

my ideal for chief of staff was jim baker for ronald reagan. things run and time and achieve the president's agenda. he said the president never loses. that's an important point to keep in mind. and number two the piece of advice he used to give me was keep our eyes on the prize. focus and discipline. and i'm sure he said it base thought i needed to hear it. but that's the kinds of attitude. if jim barrack would have been chief of staff, that would have been my ideal. lori: lept unpack some of the hotpots. the u.s. is running out of time to diffuse the situation before north korea has the it in capability to strike u.s. soil which could be within a year. what more needs to be done? john: we are close to an unacceptable point where north korea has the ability to reach the united states with nuclear weapons. the day they get that capability they will have it 24 hours later by iran writing a check to them. we ought to realize there are regimes like to north korea and iran where that doesn't work. diplomatic options remaining are very limited and i

. >> in comments, jim baker advised general kelly to focus less on chief and more on "of staff." chris with bowl advised him to demand clearance of every tweet. >> bret: story you broke about computer systems. >> fox news has learned the national computer network relied on by america's top federal prosecutors suffered a hit as a justice department source put it, knocking out internet service and causing other disruptions. the outages were impeding prosecutors work as late as this afternoon. federal officials say the power source in south carolina has gone down twice the last few days with the office is relying on emergency backup while working to bring systems back online. we are told there is no terrorism connection but rather that this was simply a hardware issue. >> bret: okay, james. in a diplomatic tit for tat, vladimir putin orders 755 u.s. diplomatic staff out of the country. on the heels of new u.s. sanctions against russia. president trump has signals the -- signaled he will sign. as of this hour, he hasn't. mike pence criticized russia's move but said the trump administ

you think of jim baker and rahm emanuel when they passed health care. the health care bill was you know a spectacular flameout, tax reform is a complex minefield. on that front it's hard to imagine that general kelly is going to be that useful because it simply has not been his world throughout his adult life. >> on that point, the president is tweeting about his agenda today. he says unless the republican senators are total quitters repeal and replace is not dead. demand another vote before voting on any other bill. to you, mike, it doesn't sound like the president is real happy with the current way things are going in terms of getting his agenda accomplished. >> well, they picked the hardest thing to start off with and i think it's worth remembering that obamacare itself wasn't passed until after august. reagan didn't get the tax cut passed until august. i don't think this is actually president trump's signature legislative goal. i think infrastructure -- >> remember on the campaign trail when the president said this would be easy? >> well, yeah. okay

it's a skill set that requires diplomacy, and there aren't a lot of jim bakers or leon panettas around. >> gene robinson, one reason why a general would struggle in this job is, number one, they are accustomed to having people have to obey them. when they speak, what they're giving are orders that must be obeyed in the chain of command. so that's their behavioral history going into it. the other is that the generals usually know what you could really classify within white house terms as nothing about politics. general kelly knows absolutely nothing about the contents or the politics of health care legislation, about the tax legislation that's going to be coming up, about the budget legislation. he knows nothing about it. and managing the politics within the white house has been a white house chief of staff's primary function. >> yeah. well, you're not getting that with kelly. you know, look, most of the generals of that rank that i've met are sophisticated people, and they're not strangers at least to the hill in terms of national security matters at least. so he's got that. of course,

the first thing any serious white house chief would do, should do is pick up the phone to jim baker, the gold standard, call ken, who was reagan's successful last chief of staff. he came in in a similar circumstance in a way. reagan was on the ropes with the iran can tra scandal. there was the possibility of being impeached. they decided if he lied to them, they were going to resign. i think kelly needs to go into the oval office, sit down with donald trump and draw a red line and say, if you want to have your tweets fine. but if you tell a lion twitter, i'm gone. you can find a third white house chief. >> one thing that is fascinating that i saw this morning is much you heard the president complimenting general kelly on is what he has done with the border and immigration. do you know who was working lock, step, hand in hand with general kelly on that? jeff sessions. i did a joint interview with them to talk just about immigration and the border and the efforts they are taking on. you have one of them who is getting accolades and the other who is on the outs of all outs. >> that's wh

. >> but typically -- >> go ahead -- >> if there's a model that works, you had someone like jim baker for president reagan who president reagan saw as a peer or equal, that was one model. you have the sort of aunddy kror george w. bush model. you have the denis mcdonna, barack obama model which is like the silent enforcer model. what is the model? even though general kelly brings a lot of personal stature, he brings organizational experience, what model is going to work between him not a political animal and president trump who is unlike any president we've ever seen? >> go april. >> had a you have to remember is the chief-of-staff is in charge or in control of day-to-day operations. everyone is supposed to fall in line under him. scaramucci answers to the president. we'll see how that dynamic because general kelly and scaramucci, i wonder how that will work and play. too strong person, one strong military, the other very strong new yorkish, but then who says he doesn't mind stabbing you in the front but at the same time you have to remember, with all of these chiefs of staff, they ar

you had the jim baker and ronald reagan relationship where he saw him as an equal. had president obama and his chief of staff, dennis mcdonagh in the last few years of his administration where he was sort of like a silent enforcer behind the scenes. the relationship of president trump to reince priebus in my view was not a functional one because it didn't follow either of those models and didn't create a new model that worked. reince priebus was an effective party chair. he held the party together in 2016 but i don't think he had the right skill set to manage the running of the country with the president and it was even made more difficult by the fact what this president is unlike any other president in our lifetime. >> rebecca, we had michael shields on a moment ago saying that reince priebus did a great job working with the president in the six months tenure. he did what he needed to do and then there was a transition that made sense to happen and it was time to cut ties. how effective do you think priebus was as a chief of staff? >> well, certainly i mean, there

and the next morning, jim baker and george schultz and all his cabinet guys come in and say, you know, any questions from the briefing book, he said, well, boys, i'm really sorry, but the sound of music was on last night. well, he didn't -- he didn't read the briefing book. but he had already developed skills with maggie thatcher and having his back against trudeau, later on the other leaders and not at this kind of crisis either and then he gradually learned it. and by the time he met with gorbachev in '84, he was as skilled a negotiator as there was. >> it takes the president taking time to develop the relationship. for him, foreign policy was as much about personal policy as it was the diplomatic stuff he had to do. so president reagan, quite frankly all of the presidents, even though, you know, people said that barack obama didn't have a good relationship with members on the hill, he had a good relationship with our allies, certainly in nato and elsewhere. that is not something that seems to be of importance to this president to develop those relationships, except for the ones tha

speculation, when is donald trump going to bring the grown-ups in, when -- ronald reagan brings in jim baker and what do we get? we get donald trump bringing in anthony scaramucci which pretty much tells you what the trajectory of this administration is goingb to in the foreseeable future. >> kasie hunt, did the addition of anthony scaramucci make anyone on capitol hill less concerned about this white house and their focus on governing and legislating? >> i don't think so. nicolle, look, in sean spicer they got rid of or lost somebody who actually did have a lot of relationships up here on capitol hill. people around here have known spicer for a really long time and reince priebus. he's the guy they're calling when they're at the most freaked out. if they're worried about something that the president has done, that i a're on the phone with reince priebus. he's said to people like lindsey graham and john mccain, hey, guys, i really need you in our corner right now, here's why. he's been the one who is able to get some traction and so to the degree that you see, you know, spicer as the close a

. >> david gergen just a little bit ago tweeted the best chiefs of staff j and you named you and jim baker, were not only good organizers but masters at politics. do you need to have a master at politics? it goes beyond organization? >> well, obviously, having a good sense of politics in dealing particularly with capitol hill because as chief of staff in many ways, you have to speak on behalf of the president. people will call you to ask you on issues and taking steps on behalf of the president. so you do have to have that side of you. john kelly did work with the congress when he was my military aide. he's familiar with the congress. i think that kind of political experience is something that john is going to have to develop as part of his role as chiefs of staff. >> back in 2016 as a candidate donald trump said priebus that he knows better than to lecture me,ed aing, quote, we're not dealing with a five star army general. does a chief of staff have to be able to at the very least steer him? clearly this president is kind of running his own -- he's steering the ship rightly or wrongly. do

. >> rose: that would be mike deefer accusing jim baker of committing a crime. >> it wouldn't have been on twitter. >> and saying i will send the fbi and d o.j. to investigate the person who is the most, in most administrations the most powerful person in the country besides the president of the united states. >> rose: what can you say good about donald trump at this stage after six months? >> good for the news business. >> rose: what else? >> >> rose: for example, there is an article in "the wall street journal" today, by greg ipps the myth of trump's do nothing presidency, to gage in that, go beyond the laws he signed to the vast authority he wills through departments and agencies that apply the law, sk months into his presidency donald trump's detractors portray him as a do nothing president with no big wins on health care, taxes and infrastructure t may be true if the bench mark is legislation but this is an increase bench mark. to gage a president's impact you have to go beyond the laws he signs to the vast authority he wields. >> that is true, particular particularly in the area o

four books -- six books, i've interviewed many, many people from jimmy carter to walter mondale and jim baker and nancy reagan and other people like that. there were only three people i couldn't interview, is and one of them was alice cooper. and you say, well, why would you want to interview alice cooper? well, it turns out alice was a reagan supporter in 1980. so i contacted his office out in arizona. reagan had -- alice had contributed to reagan. alice had voted for reagan. no, alice didn't want to do a debate or do an interview. and i said, why? and his aide says rather sheepishly, well, alice was drunk. [laughter] and i said, what do you mean alice was drunk? and she said alice was drunk from 1976-1983. [laughter] and i said do you mean all the time? she said, yeah, pretty much. [laughter] so i think henry may have discovered there's a lot of joy in book writing as well. i've certainly enjoyed it. someone once asked me what's the most profitable form of writing, is it op-eds, letters, speeches, book writing, and i thought for a moment and said the most profitable form of writing is ranso

you need a jim baker sort. he didn't regard ryan as a peer for some reason, and perhaps he would regard general kelly that way. we know the respect he has for all the generals. he thin so maybe general kelly in that role would be regarded by the president as someone more on an equal footing on him. and fraps, to david's point earlier, he would listen to him. but maybe he was. this may be what you need as chief of staff in this white house. >> reince priebus denounced the chief of stachlt you see him getting onto air force i. they just got off air force i to the the. you see the video where they're. if reince priebus is watching us right now, we would love to have you call in, we'd love to hear from you. you could clarify precisely the truth, the fiction, everything right now. we would love to hear from you, reince, if you want to call in. you've known a lot of us for a long time. we would like to get your side of the story. we have cameras at the white house as well. if you want to go in front of the camera, we

over the course of four, six books i've interviewed many, many people jimmy carter to walter and jim baker and nancy ray begun other people like that. but only three people i couldn't interview one of them was -- alice cooper. and he said well why would you want to interview alice cooper, alice of a reagan supporter in 1980 so i contacted his office out in arizona. reagan had -- alice had contradicted to reagan alice voted for reagan no alice didn't want to do a debate. or o do an interview. and i said why? and aid says, whether sheepishly, well alice was drunk. [laughter] i said you mean alice was dharun? from 1976 to 1983. [laughter] i said you mean all of the time in she said yep pretty much. so -- i think henry may have discovered this is a lot of joy this -- book writing as well. certainly enjoyed it. someone once asked me is what's most profitable form of writing is it on e ed, letters, speeches, book writing, i thought for a moment i said -- the most profitable form of writing is -- ransom notes. [laughter] history is written backwards but lived forward and i think henry is written

i can't imagine anyone doing this, my first boss, bob halderman or jim baker or don rumsfeld, they would have had his butt out of there in 35 seconds. he's supposed to be developing a communications plan and created a gigantic controversy. i like anthony, this is about as dumb and stupid a thing as i have seen in my life. he's created a big controversy. he has tound that financial disclosures are public documents, part of going into the white house. trish: the political reporter put that out there. >> challenge the chief of staff at a time of critical, critical fights on the hill right today with all the chaos over sessions and what have you, is about as dumb a thing as i've seen. trish: he must have good support from the guy that matters. >> it does not matter. you've created chaos in the white house, and if the president told him to do, this which i don't think the president did, that's stupid. at the end of the day, you've created another controversy. trish: but he feels like he can. regardless whether the president told him to do it or not, to why did he do it? >> who gets hurt? the

over the course of my six books, i've interviewed many people, jimmy carter, jim baker and nancy reaganand other people like that but the only three people that i couldn't interview, one of them was alice cooper, well, it turns out alice was a reagan supporter in 1980 so i contacted his office, i was in arizona, reagan had alice contributed to reagan and no alice didn't want to do interview and said, alice, was drunk. what do you mean alice was drunk. alice was drunk from 1976 to 1983. i said, you mean all of the time? she said, yeah, pretty much. [laughter] >> henry might have discovered a lot of joy in book writing as well. someone once asked me, what's the most profitable form of writing, is it op-eds, letters, speeches, book writing and i thought for a moment, i said the most profitable form of writing is ransom notes. [laughter] >> history is written backwards but lived forward and i think henry has written that in his book. what i'm going to do is talk about what first surprised henry is what i like about his book. first of all, he opens up a new discussion about ronald reagan, on

. >> major, peter baker talked to jim baker, sort of the gold standard for being chief of staff. baker said it depends on how well you do depend on whether you emphasize the chief or the staff. what attributes both good and bad does john kelly bring to the job? >> reporter: let's talk about advantages. one of the reasons that reince priebus was around for so long is president trump could not find a replacement he really wanted. now he has one and everyone here knows that. all the warring factions at least for now are making all the right nows about wanting to follow kelly's lead. he also doesn't have any of the embedded loyalty questions that arose around reince priebus during the campaign when after that "access hollywood" tape broke, priebus was one of the few in the inner campaign circle to suggest to the president he might want to step out of the campaign. that never left priebus's questions about loyalties. advantages, also, that kelly has, the next big issue for this white house, tax reform. the president and the treasury secretary will take the lead there. disadvantages, he

jim nantz, ian baker-finch, everybody at cbs.thday, america, and have a safe and wonderful week ahead. today, we spend a whole lot of time like this. so at citizens bank, we've created banking tools that fit how you're living today. from advanced atms... to online banking... to our award winning mobile app. and if you prefer face-to-face, we have that too. ask me, terry goggans, how our balance of technology and people can help you. captioning funded by cbs and ford. we go further, so you can. >> this is what i stood for. >> and you were willing to die for it? >> for this cause. >> hoping to die for it? >> yeah. >> at the age of 19 this american joined isis and organized friends to go to syria to join the brutal fight. he was facing 15 years in prison but was released for one day to tell his story to us. did you see the videos of the isis atrocities? >> yes, i have seen them. >> of the jordanian pilot that they burned to death? did you think you were going to be doing that kind of thing? >> yeah. i was going to be participating i

. >> but typically -- >> go ahead -- >> if there's a model that works, you had someone like jim baker for president reagan who president reagan saw as a peer or equal, that was one model. you have the sort of andy carr george w. bush model. like the uppermost person among the loyal foot soldiers. you have the denis mcdonough-barack obama model which is like the silent enforcer model. what is the model? even though general kelly brings he brings experience, what model is going to work between him not a political animal and president trump who is unlike any president we've ever seen? >> go april. >> had a you have to remember is the chief-of-staff is in charge or in control of day-to-day operations. everyone is supposed to fall in line under him. right now, scaramucci answers to the president. we'll see how that dynamic because general kelly and scaramucci, i wonder how that will work and play. two strong persons. one strong military, the other very strong new yorkish. but then who says he doesn't mind stabbing you in the front. but at the same time you have to remember, with all of the

i do not know why, but jim baker was a smart lawyer and maybe it was part of his skill set to know when to be absent. [laughter] he is not there. people respect baker and know he lawyer.rt he says he spoke with him and it is he is spewed that soliciting third country support for the contras could be an and teachable -- an impeachable offense. this is like dropping a bomb. be ans this could impeachable offense and this is a meeting for the record. casey says, george, you are wrong. he does not call him a liar but he uses the equivalent, which he says, you are totally wrong about what james baker said. you are misrepresenting what he said. there is a back-and-forth about what baker really said. casey says this is not an impeachable offense. persists andz says, i think it is a serious problem because bakersfield as he explained it is congress will only allow money it has appropriated to go to the contra, and their view will be if we try to get the word countries to arm -- get third countries to arm the contras, that would be like us trying to indirectly fund the contras outside of appropri

look, from selling indulgences and saints heads to jim baker and the 700 club to ralph reid's weird connections been a fine environment for eager entrepreneurs. but this bunch, i mean, that's a lot of dough they're talking about. >> yeah. >> and they seem to be pitching themselves at the elderly and the terrified, or the terrified elderly. and that i find not exactly consummate with the gospel. >> not quite what jesus preached. >> no. >> frank shafr, you come from this world and i'm wondering why this is so effective. you think about the fact these are people making exorbitant sums of money, cfo of case, $2.6 million for him, adam, his nephew $518,000. logan sekulow, his son, $471,000, his other son, jordan, $137,000 according to "the washington post." and just overall out of $229 million raised by these organizations between 2011 to 2015 $5.5 million going to members of the family, $23 million to their firms. why do people in the christian community not see this, notice this and why are they not offended by it? >> well, joy, it's part of the fallout of the culture wars. and they have decided t

we say they then crossed over that's not really the truth y'all started with jim and tammy faye bakerll started cross over. >> yes, sir. 8 5% and 15% the other. so this made me angry in the beginning because they didn't want to support us but when they saw the support over here they owned it. >> i get that. it's funny when you think about it y'all literally had to be discovered by black folk coming off of the good white folk stage. >> yes, sir. >> y'all had to go the other way. it's usually the other way around you start at black venue and work your way to cross over so y'all did it the other way around. >> yes, sir. >> so i can see how it makes sense people get a story they can situate themselves in. tell me quickly about the music. you are a great songwriter. did you hear that, i know marvin. >> oh, boy. >> i taught bebe and the rest of them how to write songs i can hear it right now. he's a great songwriter. >> he is. you know it's been ten years on this journey and i have written this song. one thing i think is brave of a songwriter is to write about your pain. write about those t