and i'll give the final word to you, jim bianco. because once it happens and you lose the faith of the markets, it's not like all of a sudden when you deal with it, it's fine. >> no, that's what happened in europe. if you want a one-sentence thing to what happened in europe, they borrowed too much money, they kicked the problem down the road until it was too late. and now they're dealing with 20% interest rates over there. and if we start doing that, we're going to get to the point where the markets are going to blow up, they're going to promise a deal, and the markets are not going to right themselves. that's what happened in europe a year and a half ago and we see the mess they're in now and we're playing that same game. >> thanks very much to all three of you. sure hope those super committee members are watching and listening and taking it to heart. 20% interest rates or the remaining best economy in the world. it's a choice and they can make it. >>> all right, "outfront" next, newt's payout is getting bigger and bigger and bigge

jim bianco is president of bianco research. and john avenalon is a cnn contributor. you have looked at the numbers. you have done the math. how big of a deal do we need to do to really make a difference and tell the world and the markets that lend to america that we're serious? >> oh, i think the $4 trillion number that you cited is probably the range that we'd have to do. the minimum, of course, they'd have do is 1.4 trillion to raise the debt ceiling, which is going to hit again. but if you want to send a very broad message, i'd say $4 trillion, if not more. and the more you send, the more you would do, the stronger the message. >> and if they don't do a deal and then they get rid of these automatic cuts, as we have heard people say he wants to get rid of, that would be a debt ceiling problem soon, right? >> it would be august of last summer all over again. remember we were talk about default and we were talking about not paying on our debt? and we were all worried about the doomsday scenario. if we call the whole thing up, in six weeks, we have the debt ceiling ag