jim cavanaugh has been with us all day long. he is with the division of the alcohol, tobacco and firearms, law enforcement officer. i want to ask about your reaction to the president's words. and i'm asking you because of the number of years you carried a firearm for a living, putting you in a certain gun-owning or gun-carrying subset. and the part of society you've seen as part of law enforcement, as someone who took an oath to investigate the illegal use of a weapon and, given our conversation all day long today. >> right, brian. the thing that struck me most about what the president said is he talked over the congress. he talked over the lobby groups. he talked right to the citizens. if there's going to be a change, it's going to be by the voter. it won't be anywhere else. there will be no change unless the voters, unless the american voter decides there will be a change. we could decide there will be a change to vote for people in congress who want the change. unless that happens we probably won't see it. the second part of

. >> you heard jim cavanaugh in the afternoon reporting here that said they kept a lot of guns away from people who went to buy a gun for a purpose, they figured out what it was, and stopped them. >> since the brady law was passed and implemented in 1994, 2.4 million sales have been blocked to convicted felons, domestic abusers, dangerously mentally ill, people that we all agree shouldn't have those. >> it works? >> tremendously well. the problem is that those laws, that law doesn't impact gun shows or online gun sale. >> why would a gun show ever be exempt from government regulation at all? >> because the gun lobby wants it that way. the only place -- we were talking about how this is a complicated issue. it's not that complicated as far as the american public goes. >> the leadership of the nra, suppose the leadership of the nra simply said we think gun rights are essential to this country, second amendment. we're going to fight tooth and nail but we believe certain people shouldn't get their hands on guns. we're going to keep those people from getting guns. would it change the view of

we are joined by atf veteran and nbc news analyst jim cavanaugh. jim, we just heard the number of weapons. we heard that he had confirmation of the report that he had body armor. what do you make of what you just heard? >> well, what we talked about yesterday, brian, which was the preparation, a lot of preparation. this guy shows up, has four guns maybe in the classroom, assistant special agent in charge talked about two other guns on campus, so six guns at the campus, another seven at the house. lots of ammunition, lots of magazines, preparation and one media report, i don't know if nbc confirmed it, but that when he was inside that he told some of the victims he had been preparing to do this for a couple of years. so a lot of mental preparation, a lot of actual preparation. a guy very determined, a coward to do mass murder. it is a hate crime, brian. when you have somebody that has religion, any religion, and kill them, regardless of any other motive, it is a hate crime. hate crime surrounded by a lot of mental issues. >> there's no joy in being r

we're joined by nbc news law enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh also by telephone. s? >> well, brian, i think it's just the thing that people need to keep positive know that when people are shot doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a fatality. a school that has rescue, paramedics and fire departments close by, there can be a whole lot of good medicine applied early. it's not of the battlefields. it's not out in a remote area. everybody needs to keep positive on that. if police can stop the shooter or the school administrators can stop the shooter and the paramedics can get in there, just the fact that somebody's shot, they're speaking they're awake, paramedics are there, there's a good chance they could be rescued. >> couldn't agree more. that's why we've got to report only the numbers we know and so far from the county commissioner, one female shot in the chest, a number injured and one suspect apparently, apparently down. so thomas, clearly this is going to be a developing situation out in the state of oregon. >> yeah, we have that confirmation, as you said, f

. >> jim cavanaugh, longtime atf, alcohol, tobacco, firearms consultant, and he is with us by phone. jim, have you learned anything more, any further thoughts as this death toll has risen since we first had you on? >> brian, your report, and with kate, it takes you back to snyder hall, what it shows you, this is a proximity murder all of these deaths and all of these injuries. i mean 13 dead, as you've been discussing there, 20 or more wounded. you know you don't -- every bullet does not hit -- you miss when you're wildly shooting like a killer like this. you're going to have a lot of rounds extended here. this is not going to be 33 victims with 33 rounds. this is going to be, if the number's close to that, 33 victims and a whole lot more rounds. and the proximity, if you think about as you talked about earlier, new town, if you think about virginia tech, think about aurora, people in a room with the shooter who is loaded for bear and he's pumping the rounds at them. it's a vulgar, vulgar site. our hearts go out to everybody there. i mean it takes you back to the emmanuel church where

thank you very much for being with us, jim cavanaugh remains with us, atf veteran himself and an analyst for us at msnbc and nbc news. jim, you've had time to think about this and we've been lamenting all day, this starts to follow a kind of sad march sequence that all of these mass shootings follow. >> right, brian. collectively, as a country, we're all in this together. we've got to take the steps to do better, our heart goes out to everyone out there. this is a hurting community now with whatever that number turns out to be, this i awful. up yards of 30 people shot for no reason at all by a 20-year-old male. what is the reason behind this? we talk about mental illness. and that may very well be involved. but there's also elements sometimes of just revenge and suicide. you know, young people who can't deal with life, i mean they get a setback in life and then they can't deal with it. and you and i in our generation, we've all dealt with our parents who had many setbacks in life and taught us, you've got to get over them. young people who can't get over them it may not be a full-blown m