. >>> we go back to jim cavanaugh. so, jim, tell me more about this system of identifying weapons via the casings. >> right. chuck, the way it works, atf runs the things called a national interesting grated ballistic network. we have these machines, they've been given to major police departments, sheriff's departments, like the special agent in charge -- i specially no eric there. he's a great guy. they have a machine right there at the sheriff's department. they can take the casings and bullets that they recover and pull them in the machine sources if they match any other crimes. of course, this is not the typical criminal act. in crimes where people are involved in a lot of crimes, those machines are very helpful. we can target criminals who are active shooting on the streets. thee great in gang investigations, people who are active criminals, but if you get a group here that's acting on some sort of political motive, they may not have ever done this before, so you can put a lot into that. it's something we have to do

. >> bringing in right now jim cavanaugh, an msnbc law enforcement analyst. he is a retired agent with the atf. lot me ask you, jim, we're watching an amazing bit of television here following this tragedy. we watched the police, the s.w.a.t. units surround that car, approach it very warily for fear that the suspect may still be alive inside, or that there may be some kind of a bomb set that might explode. also now we're watching police going door to door with police dogs, looking for another suspect apparently. this is one of those rare times when television cameras are so far ahead of the reporting. what can you tell from this yourself? >> you know, that's exactly right. it appears that they're searching for another suspect, at least one more. there has been reports of one wounded, one killed, one captured. but it sure looks like there is an active search going on. but of course they're trying to be thorough. we don't know all the facts. we're probably not going to get any more on that until the chief of police talks again in a few minutes, 45 minutes. but th

we have to work together to do it. >> well said, jim cavanaugh.hank you. >>> well, a quick update on the story. the new york times for first time since 1920 is using space on its front page to call for greater gun regulation in the wake of several deadly mass shootings. >>> next up, what happened to the baby left behind by the san bernardino attackers? that's new information this morning. >>> and new information on tashfeen malik. what family members are saying about her. and we leave you with information about gun ownership in america following the mass shootings. ♪ (vo) some call it giving back. we call it share the love. during our share the love event, get a new subaru, and we'll donate $250 to those in need. bringing our total donations to over sixty-five million dollars. and bringing love where it's needed most. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. can this much love be cleanedrlin' by a little bit of dawn ultra? oh yeah. one bottle has the grease cleaning power of two bottles of this bargain brand. a drop of dawn and grease is gone. wi

to another old friend we go, a 30 plus year veteran of law enforcement, former head of the atf, jim cavanaugh. jim, you have been watching all of this from your listening post along with us. what questions occur to you and any disconnects? >> well, i think that the discussion you have had is important, because i think what l.a. unified district is dealing with is what's happened in their backyard in the last two weeks. remember, just within a few miles of their student body, they had 14 people slaughtered, they had them manufacturing and the ability to make up to 19 pipe bombs, at least four remote control bombs. one of those bombs was in a backpack that was left at the inland regional center where they did the slaughter. los angeles citizens have been bombarded with that case for two solid weeks. we have seen it constantly in the national news. but they have never gotten away from it. these are their neighbors and friends. they are making that decision in the shadow of that event. i think at least we got to give them -- we've got to give them that. we've got to also understand that. new york

jim cavanaugh is with us, as we wait for the press conference to begin here. we're going tore hearing from the san bernardino sheriff and the police. as we wait for that i. jim, at this stage, what are we, almost two, three hours since the first call went out? >> what would be happening oregon? >> shooter or shooters, you know, large investigative component made up of detectives from all these special agents trying to find the shooter. suede may have -- it's going to be told at the press conference, but the key point, did they locate the shooter or shooters? after that, if they escaped the perimeter, it's a very different situation. it would have to evolved in the coming hours. it becomes both a tactical event, when you locate him. preparation for that and an investigative event to find out who they are. which way would they go if they escaped. >> as we're eight wags a preference conference, thomas, we are hoping for more clarity about the number of injured. we've seen reports of 20 potential injured people. we've heard knbc reporting based on their corresponde

i do want to bring in now to help put us in context, jim cavanaugh, who has been watching all of this with us as it unfolds throughout the afternoon. as you're watching this with us, jim, what are you seeing in term of -- we see one of these vehicles backing up now. what does this tell you? >> well, what they've done is they've pinched it. that's a s.w.a.t. marv union to pinch the vehicle when you have a suspect who barricades in a vehicle. the front truck maneuvered a little bit over probably to get a better view. and they may have been able to see in there through that top hatch, i don't know if you can see there's a s.w.a.t. officer through the top hatch, that's a hatch that you can deliver gas or shoot. they're around the side of the vehicle. there's another vehicle directly off from the driver's door straight out and so they've got somebody in there. they're talking to him. you know, they may be just yelling at him. they may be talking on the cell phone. usually you just yell and say what's your phone number? we'll call you on the phone? and they're probably negotiating with him.

let's go back to jim cavanaugh. jim, you're with us still, right? >> yeah, i'm here. >> yjim, we have with us michae kay who would like to ask you a question. >> i'm on the set here with ayman. you and i know from our backgrounds of military and law enforcement from the four cs, clear, cordon and control. the last hour there's been a sort of penning in of people around the address hotel which seems quite ironic for me. given our background, you want to clear it and cordon it, then you want to control the situation. but it seems a little bit odd to want to control it with a significant number of penned in in close proximity to the hotel. what are your thoughts on that? >> you're exactly right, mike. and the thing is the emergency spreads far beyond the hotel. >> right. >> some of the video that you've seen, the embers flying off the hotel, i remember some fires, i worked in memphis, tennessee, and the embers from a structure lit multiple buildings in memphis on fire because large embers were flying through the sky and it was a windy night. some of th

joining us now, jim cavanaugh. in terms of what i just summarized, is that basically -- does that comport with what you understand tonight? >> right, rachel, exactly. you see, what would happen is, you treat the scene of the mass murder with any package found there, as if it could be an ied or a homemade bomb. and so you just methodically, you know, if everybody's wounded, day come in with the bomb squad, they have robots and x-ray machines and they can check that out. the house at redlands that we described and you showed earlier, they forced a door with a ram on the front of the bear cat s.w.a.t. vehicle and they're going to go in there as well with robots. this is maybe, looks like the house where the shooters went to, the man and a woman who are deceased in the suv, were picked up on police surveillance leaving. that's only a 15-minute drive. from san bernardino to redlands, a 15-minute drive away. . they could have had a third acto actor. the man and women left, they're now deceased. they could have went in th

jim cavanaugh, thanks for your perspective. kelly o'donnell is outside the white house.they just had a briefing there, i understand. senior administration officials. what did you learn? >> well, this was a comprehensive briefing, kate, about issues related to isis and isil and what the administration's picture looks like now. i want to flip through my notes to give you a sense of some various topics. the headline from the white house is that they believe there's a significant reduction in the physical territory that isis controls. that's important, of course, because owning territory, owning property is something that is needed for the caliphate and sort of the purpose of isis to have a region it controls. so they're talking about a reduction in the amount of territory that is controlled by isis in part due to the u.s. and coalition forces that have been able to try to constrain that. squeeze and restrict to determine how isis fighters can move in iraq and syria in terms of their own control and leadership. on financing we're told that some of the key financing for isis

>> jim cavanaugh made the statement earlier -- and i agree 100% -- that if it's a terrorist, if you want to get a lot of publicity, unfortunately, christmas, you go to shopping malls, something like that, where all of us say that could be me, that could have been me. this seems to be specifically targeted to a building, to a room, to a group of people, maybe even to one or two people within that group. that's what law enforcement has to find out. is this some terrible, random act where they drove up in front of a random building and went in and started killing people they knew nothing about? or was it specifically targeted? and again, what can that emotional glue that would that allow three individuals together to agree to commit a terrible act like this. we see international terrorists do it in the name of religion or some other reason. why would three -- and we don't know. it could be international terrorism. but if it's not, how could three rank and file individuals come together and commit an act like this and why? >> these are more an academic people in southern california want to k

and i think jim cavanaugh touched on this earlier in your show earlier today, that then once the chase ensued, they went back towards the initial shooting instead of any number of directions they could have gone, knowing there's a huge law enforcement presence in that area. it's kind of going from the frying pan into the fire. i don't know how to explain that. once we got to that final location, i was surprised at where it all ended up because that was kind of the last place i would have imagined they would have gone to if they were being chased. >> curtis vogel, thank you. that was a great report. i really appreciate that. >> today's mass shooting brings us to a staggering statistic. there have been more mass shootings than there have been days. a press conference on c.a.r.e. with the brother-in-law, that's what they say they have, of syed farook who has been identified by authorities, police officials as one of the people involved in this shooting. we're going to be looking for that, looking for that police press conference, all of that still to come. don't go anywhere. >>> we are ba

let's bring in law enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh. okay, jim. first up, i want to reiterate what the sheriff said. he's urging caution. don't draw conclusions from this singular video here. what are your observations from this? >> well, when you take the totality of the circumstances, it looks like the deputies were justified to use deadly force here. a man on the street shooting a gun. multiple reports from citizens said he's shooting his gun. they confront him. they order him to drop the weapon. he refuses and points it at the deputies. he tries to walk away. you can see it clearly. they have the absolute right to use deadly force to stop him. he's in a crowded city area, on a sidewalk, in front of a market. there's citizens all over the place. they have to stop him. they shoot him. he falls. but he's still determined to get away, he keeps crawling to get away. what you have to understand when you are dealinging with a man with a gun, all he has to do is pull the trigger and you can shoot from a prone position. we shoot from a kneeling positio

joining me now, nbc news law enforcement animal cyst, retired atf special agent jim cavanaugh. jim, let's talk about the process here. if this report is accurate here, this threat according to the associated press was sent to a school board member and "appeared to come from overseas." how would they determine that? >> well, it might -- of course the ip address if they checked it. they could have had some language or language they believe maybe was from a terrorist entity by what they were threatening. the school superintendent did say it was a rare threat. that they get a lot of threats in schools but this threat was rare and unusual so they took those steps. as you've been so accurately discussing this morning, this is unprecedented, the huge school district there. but we got to remember that we're facing a threat from terrorists who there's 30,000, 40,000, 50,000 of these daesh terrorists around the world, they all want to kill us and they have access to the media -- to the internet. they're going to want to put out those threats. that's not going to stop. and the school board

i want to bring in legal analyst jim cavanaugh. let's talk about what happened and how it happened.the chief of police of san bernardino said it seemed like these two were on a mission. they came in, opened the door and started firing. it doesn't sound look necessarily someone who gets ups upset -- >> the targeting is personal but the planning and preparation is more ideological. if you look at it this way, this couple of making the pipe bomb, this female who came from saudi arabia, about six months agriculture and pop say his behavior changed. anyway, there's a plot afoot. they're making bombs, amassing the ammunition, the equipment, the attire. something's afoot in their future. they're going to do something. it's cooking in their minds and their plan. it may not be that it's the attack on these personal co-workers, but something's afoot. now, they either -- he goes in there that morning to scout it out and before they're going to do the main attack, which could be on some soft target, they then seek revenge on co-workers or it could be that he went there not planning to do an att

jim cavanaugh is a former atf agent, now an msnbc law enforcement analyst. you watched the whole video and the presentation. this also speaks to the realtime reactions needed by those on the front lines of law enforcement. what stands out to you from looking at this grainy, non-hollywood quality video? >> it was pretty clear to me that the shooting here by the police was justified. it was within the realm of legal authority that police can use. when you take a totality of the circumstances and that's what alvarez was trying to show up, the totality, the two prior incidents of gunfire before the suspect clearly running away multiple times from the police, repeated orders to drop your gun, to stop, physical engagement with officers who tried to physically stop him and they could not, all of the officers saying they saw him with the browning high power nine millimeter in his hand. that's a large gun. i saw the freeze frame. i believe he's carrying a gun. it's pretty clear. you have the witness in the car that says he heard the slide action of the gun. that is a

. >> joined now by jim cavanaugh. he's a retired atf special agent, former hostage negotiator. jim, as we look at this video from earlier and we're seeing this police tactical vehicle break the windows of the house. that seems to be an external penetration of the house, not risking any police officers at that point, and that must be an early stage of what has become the search of that house. >> well, that's right, lawrence. you know, s.w.a.t. teams pride themselves on the ability to make safe maneuvers and very dangerous and chaotic situations. that's why they need those armored vehicles and the rams. they can break the windows and the distance, if there's a shooter hidden and tries to attack them, they're covered, if there's an explosive device, they're covered. you're right, that's early on, breaking the windows, breaking down the door so they can have a way to get in, get in a a robot and look around. row be the, we juiced to sent those -- used to send those in, you can look around and then read the screen from behind the armored vehicle. >> and jim, we just had that odd pres

mary ellen o'toole, former senior fbi profiler, and jim cavanaugh, former atf special agent in charge jim, let me ask you a question, because we know something more about the guns involved in this case. we are talking about the long guns or assault rifles used in the california shooting and the fact that under california law, if they were modified to accept more than ten rounds, the larger magazines, then they would be illegal, but if they weren't, then they would be legal under california lu. do i have that right? >> yes. that's right. they have some configurations of those guns that can be legal as long as they are modified not to accept magazines with more than ten rounds. it sure looks like these guys had magazines with a lot more than ten rounds. they are planning a big attack so they are easy to come by. you can get them in any neighboring state easy enough. there's millions and millions of them out there. they're not hard to get if you are determined and if you want to kill a lot of people. >> and kerry sanders, you are in redlands where that house was examined from top to bott

>> jim cavanaugh made the statement earlier -- and i agree 100% -- that if it's a terrorist, if you want to get a lot of publicity, unfortunately, between thanksgiving and christmas, you go to shopping malls, something like that, where all of us say that could be me, that could have been me. this seems to be specifically targeted to a building, to a room, to a group of people, maybe even to one or two people within that group. that's what law enforcement has to find out. is this some terrible, random act where they drove up in front of a random building and went in and started killing people they knew nothing about? or was it specifically targeted? and again, what can that emotional glue that would that allow three individuals together to agree to commit a terrible act like this. we see international terrorists do it in the name of religion or some other reason. why would three -- and we don't know. it could be international terrorism. but if it's not, how could three rank and file individuals come together and commit an act like this and why? >> these are more an academic questions beca

jim cavanaugh, i want you to sort of make whatever sense you can make of what information was given to us by law enforcement officials in that press conference. two people, a man and a woman in tactical gear with ton of guns. >> yeah, well, you know, one thing we talked about earlier, revenge motive. you know, if you're going to get somebody to help you in a revenge motive, you might believe able to get your spouse or girlfriend to do that. so, you know, that just stuck out to me there. i don't think that's out of the realm of possibilities yet, this being a revenge motive. as far as the items left at the scene that the bomb squad is probing, that could be an explosive device or a backpack full of ammo or some kind of equipment they dropped. it doesn't necessarily mean it's a bomb, but they have to treat it like it is. the other part that was interesting, law enforcement got an address in redland, california, these people had come up some way in the investigation as someone they should surveil. and if i'm not mistaken, the chief said they went there to surveil it. so while they were su

stay with me, jim cavanaugh is a former atf special agent in charge. k you very much for being with me. pete is talking about that that there has been a number of things that have changed our way of dealing with what are threats. but san bernardino certainly has the most recent one. jim, it's unusual -- this is such a large school district. we are talking about 640,000-plus students here. >> right, jose. i've searched many buildings for bombs and stood on top of some live bombs. it is a very difficult situation for a district that big, as you point out, and as pete points out. many times threats are just threats. but you can't go by that and that's what the school administrator is doing. look, what eric rudolph put the bomb in olympic park in atlanta, he telephoned it in. there's a bomb in centennial park, you have 30 minutes. there was a huge pipe bomb filled with dynamite and a timer that went off 25 minutes later. so it is not always so that it's not a threat. but as pete -- i mean not real. but as pete points out, most of them are just threats. but

but msnbc analyst jim cavanaugh joins me. i think we have jim by phone or a shot up?me as you help us walk through here and tweeting out already about the activity that they feel they have this situation in that area. if they're saying an active shooter, obviously they're giving a concern, and a warning to residents, they might not have this situation under control as of yet. >> that's right, thomas. you know, the critical thing always for law enforcement and this is, you know, the first responding uniformed patrol is to locate the shooter. and it's not so simple. especially if someone's moving on the street or, you know, in a crowded area. because they can be very mobile. in a car, on foot, they can run, they can hide. so locating the shooter is critical so if people are present in the area, they see somebody running around with a gun, shooting, think need to call the sheriff's department 911 and let them know, give a description and the location. that's critical. >> we have the confirmation from the sheriff's department about this. and this was a tweet that came, ji

i want to go to jim cavanaugh for some context on all of this. m, this is a big deal for what we know now is 900 schools being shut down and the effort that needs to be placed in to sweeping these schools before they're reopened. so, if you're tasking a team, what do you say? >> it is broken down, thomas, into each individual school and you get the school administrators, teachers, maintenance staff, some uniformed officers and search and find out what's out of place, suspicious bags or packages, you know, you bring in bomb disposal officer. i did this so many times, i can't tell you how many times, grade schools, high schools, colleges, abortion clinics, business facilities, skyscrapers on real bombs and bomb threats. we did this all the time and i was in charlie beck's chair many times talking to the leader of the business or the school over the threat and their question always was what should i do? should i evacuate the place? and i remember one time one of the big three automakers, we were in a plant, a union strike. a lot of threats. and he wa