jim cavanaugh. jim, i want to get straight into what jonathan is reporting. that is now that they're going to move it, the new york police department, move this device from the second location, the suspicious package by definition here's tom was saying to the bronx, that's about a 45-minute drive by the map on arch more or less here. and what might be that protocol? because tom winter was also saying how they got a local alert. stay away from your windows that you live in this location. this second location in the vicinity of it. how should or what is the protocol that is normally taken as a former atf agent here in moving this containment unit with the suspicious package up to this location, that's some 45 minutes away. >> we used to say always take the road with the least potholes. we don't jar it as we're going. but this vessel containment vessel is very sturdy. and the size of a bomb that could be inside the pressure cooker, it can hold that blast. and the reason the city's like new york used a

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let's bring in jim cavanaugh, former atf agent. jim, we understand that this pressure cooker, this suspicious package is now being moved to a location north into the bronx, about 45 minutes from what we calling location number two. what might be the concern in the movement of this suspicious package, which may be an explosive device, but we have no confirmation on that. >> right, certainly looks like a bomb. and the bomb squad would treat it like a bomb. the tape on the top of it as tom winter was describing it as how it looks like devices you see in "inspire" magazine, technicalpay said to make bombs like this. even the failed bomber in times square, he made such a contraption, a rude goldberg device, it wouldn't work. i told you about the bomb squad officer killed from a pressure cooker bomb years ago. this looks like a bomb. it's got the duct tape across the top. two wires entering through a center hole. if so, this could be to a detonator, a cell phone taped outside, it's hard to see in the picture, jonathan's report and tom's r

we'll bring in jim cavanaugh, former atf agent. jim, we understand that this pressure cooker, this suspicious package, is now being moved to a location north into the bronx about 45 minutes from what we were calling location number two. what might be the concern in the movement of this suspicious package, which may be an explosive device, but we have no confirmation on that. >> right. it looks like a bomb and the bomb squad will treat it like a bill of indictment on the tape, on the top of it, richard, as he was describing, this is what it looked like with devices from "inspire" magazine that said to make pressure cooker bombs like this. of course, they have been used. the failed bomber in times square, he made such a contraption, the device was in a pressure cooker as well. he pushes it and i told you about the bomb squad officer from the area, but it looks like a bomb, it has the duct tape across the tape with two wires entering through a center hole. if so, this could be through a detonator, a timer or cell phone taped outside. i

joining me again tonight jim cavanaugh.into the front door, at first it looks like he has no weapon. then goes into a bathroom and pulls it out or he secreted that inside. >> jim cavanaugh, thanks for sticking around. that'll do it for us right now on this saturday night. we will continue to update the washington state mall shooting and the charlotte situation throughout the night right here on msnbc. you have a great saturday evening. coming up on "look! famous people!" we catch flo, the progressive girl, at the supermarket buying cheese. scandal alert! flo likes dairy?! woman: busted! [ laughter ] right afterwards we caught her riding shotgun with a mystery man. oh, yeah! [ indistinct shouting ] is this your chauffeur? what?! no, i was just showing him how easy it is to save with snapshot from progressive. you just plug it in and it gives you a rate based on your driving. does she have insurance for being boring? [ light laughter ] laugh bigger. [ laughter ] everyone thought i was crazy to open a hotel here. everyone said

we also have jim cavanaugh, a former atf agent. you've been able to listen to all the information here. jim, i was trying to ask questions that you would. of course, you are the expert here. what would be one of the questions you would ask at the moment of information that may be available to us to try to understand what may have happened here on 23rd street between 6th and 7th? jim cavanaugh, are you there? >> as jonathan described it and tom, very good reporting here, the witnessing describing the loud noise, the reverberations, windows broken on the building there, so this is exactly the kind of a blast you would have inside a dumpster. you have pointed out the mangled dumpster. we've seen the photographs. it's more like the size of a trash bin. what you get is this cannon effect because it is an all metal container. i would be the most concerned about is somebody testing a mixture. why throw it in a dumpster? you do have some injuries, but i'd be really concerned that somebody, an urban person here, is concocting a mixture here

of note, jim cavanaugh still with us. we have all these pieces of information. they're basically saying in so many words as much as they can tell us without revealing the process here, jim, that the information related to this investigation so far it does not show that it is of, if you will, high alert. however, there is the question of this being intentional. that's what they said. it was an intentional act. what do you make of the amount of data that they gave to us in this news briefing, jim? >> the way they come about that, the bomb investigators, it is basically from the other angle. we call it a negative corpus. what they're coming around and saying is we've eliminated a gas leak. we've eliminated an accidental thing at the building, a transformer, an electrical box, any kind of obvious accidental we have eliminated. like lightning striking a dumpster. all these things are eliminated. yet this dumpster either inside or immediately outside exploded. that's why it was an intentional act. they don't seem to have their answer of exactly what it was made of. th

let's bring in jim cavanaugh. we understand that this pressure cooker, this suspicious package is now being moved to a location north into the bronx, about 45 minutes from what we were calling location number two. what might be the concern in the movement of this suspicious package, which may be an explosive device, but we have no inf confirmation of that. >> right. it looks like a bomb and will be treated like a bomb. the tape on the top of it as tom winter was describing it, how it looks like some devices you see in inspire magazine, particularly, said to make bombs like this, pressure cooker bombs, and of course they've been used. even the failed bomber in times square, he made a crude device that didn't function. the marathon bombs, inspire pushes it. and i told you about the bomb squad officer killed by a pressure cooker bomb years ago. it has the two wires entering through a center hole, if so, this could be to a detonator, a timer or cell phone taped outside, it's kind of hard to see in the picture, jonatha

. >>> for more on the investigation, let's bring in jim cavanaugh, msnbc law enforcement analyst and a former special agent in charge of the atf. thank you for being here, jim. >> good morning, reverend al. >> jim, what are authorities doing right now to determine who is behind the attack? >> well, here's the first thing, rev, that i would be thinking as a commander in this case. this is very interesting. you have to look at it in a macro sense. we talked about the pressure cooker device. we have to find out if that's a real device. it looks real. the bomb squad has got it. here's a disturbing fact. inspire magazine, the first edition that al qaeda put out, talked about making bombs. one of the bombs they talked about making, of course, was a pressure cooker device. it looks very similar to this and we saw it in the boston marathon. we also saw it in times square. but what's important to note there is the paragraph above that on the same page where al qaeda instructs this pressure cooker device is the most effective method, they talk about making a bomb with three pipe bombs strung to

jim cavanaugh, what do you make of what you're seeing of the police movements here?the police, obviously, have taken the highway, looks like the interstate highway divided with a cement barrier with their line. it's all obvious to us that highways present a danger to civilians who could be on that, you know, on foot. nevertheless, they've shut down the highway. both ways. you can see, there's no traffic but the police. but they've decided to make that a line, not to let the people on the highway. now we don't know the reason for that, lawrence, it may be that they want police and ambulance and other vehicles to be able to move up and do you knwn that hi. that could be a main artery for emergency vehicles, and it's a place they don't have to contend. i doubt they're going to try to push up the hill. it looks like they're trying to keep the highway static. >> tremaine, tell us what the situation is now. >> reporter: are you guys there? police are moving up the hill. police are moving up the hill, firing rubber bullets, there is some gas. we were standing on that hill,

. >> jim cavanaugh is standing by. jim, a dual-pronged question for you. number one, after a lifetime in law enforcement, anything you'd like to add or even disagree with our conversation and second, how does this end tonight? you've seen this live coverage of these two lines staring each other down in charlotte after a violent night in charlotte. how does this end? >> better said, brian, how should it end. it should end where the police should never take the position to go along with janelle's position, the police should never go to the position that you have to save face. you have to prove you're stronger than the protesters. i mean, i would like to see that, you know, the protesters, emanuel who tammy lightner interviewed, he's exercising a constitutional right. in many countries in the world, the police line would broug beirutalize a person doing that. in america i'd like to say that our police, as a career police and federal agent, didn't do that. they stood there and let that man protest and that can be ended without the officers having to say face.

i want to bring in retired atf investigation in charge jim cavanaugh. we are getting some pictures there as you see on the screen of what appears to be that gash kwaj can. there is also the backpack i mentioned. tough to put this all together. but if you can. >> i walked that boardwalk many times and worked on that pipe bomb. sounds like the device malfunctioned. because the backpack was found and we don't know if this backpack was empty or contained items could have belonged to the bomber. nevertheless, a backpack was found, the race was delayed. that was fortuitous. a device like this, a pipe bomb maybe with multiple devices that malfunctioned is an anti-personnel device. it's not meant to destroy buildings. it's meant to harm people. the placement of the garbage can throws you off. it would just be used to conceal the device during the time the bomber wanted it to function. much like the marathon bombing in boston. it's placed on the route. this might have been timed to function at a certain time. >> what's most important as we try to piece this toge

with us is retired atf agent in charge jim cavanaugh.e you making of this situation developing? >> this is a bigger matter than it looks on its face. when you see a garbage can you think this is to the a big deal. this is a very important case here. there is a bomber loose on the jersey shore. if you look at targeting, and we look at targeting as part of motive, it was targeting a race. it was fortuitous the race was delayed for a couple of reasons, slow sign-up and maybe finding a backpack somewhere, that could have been left by a bomber by the way. we don't know the answer to that. if it had gone off when the race was supposed to start, we could have had a situation like the boston marathon. you have a targeted event, a timed event. >> i want to interrupt you to go to philadelphia. that press conference just began. >> 18 times with a nine millimeter luger. most of those rounds did enter her vehicle. she was struck quite a few times. fortunately at least one or two were lodged in her ballistic vest. she took some rounds to the arm. he a

bernard keric, thank you and jim cavanaugh as well. >>> a manhunt on the ground and online. federal officials looking for clues inside the home of ahmed khan rahami. pete williams will join us with the very latest next. whether it's connecting one of the world's most innovative campuses. or bringing wifi to 65,000 fans. businesses count on communication, and communication counts on centurylink. marcopolo! marco...! polo! marco...! polo! marco...! polo! marco...! sì? polo! marco...! polo! scusa? ma io sono marco polo, ma... marco...! playing "marco polo" with marco polo? surprising. ragazzini, io sono marco polo. sì, sono qui... what's not surprising? how much money amanda and keith saved by stching to geico. ahhh... polo. marco...! polo! fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. polo! here you go.picking upor kyle. you wouldn't put up with part of a pizza. um. something wrong? so when it comes to pain relievers, why put up with just part of a day? you want the whole thing? yes, yes! live whole. not part. aleve. >>> we are back with breaking news on the search f

>> jim cavanaugh continues to watch with us. jim, it won't surprise you to learn that the electronic avenue through which i was listening to the charlotte mecklenburg police scanner has gone down. they've taken the frequency down so people like me won't be able to listen to it. prior to that happening, i did hear an announcement that all tactical calls, ie, when to fire flash-bang grenades, pepper balls, and when to advance would come from a specific lieutenant on the force tomorrow, i'm guessing kind of the on-scene shift commander. jim, you think this kind of thing will move slowly, because you don't want to ramp the excitement, the anger level back up? >> yeah. they've done such a good job since the whole night, really, since the report of this shooting, which is persons in critical condition and, you know, we saw the bearcat move up. we saw more officers deployed. they really handled this very methodically. they've had a number of officers injured. they've made some arrests. but anyone who watches this sees a very professiona

>> jim cavanaugh continues to watch with us. jim, it won't surprise you to learn that the electronic avenue through which i was listening to the charlotte mecklenburg police scanner has gone down. they've taken the frequency down so people like me won't be able to listen to it. prior to that happening, i did hear an announcement that all tactical calls, ie, when to fire flash-bang grenades, pepper balls, and when to advance would come from a specific lieutenant on the force tomorrow, i'm guessing kind of the on-scene shift commander. jim, you think this kind of thing will move slowly, because you don't want to ramp the excitement, the anger level back up? >> yeah. they've done such a good job since the whole night, really, since the report of this shooting, which is persons in critical condition and, you know, we saw the bearcat move up. we saw more officers deployed. they really handled this very methodically. they've had a number of officers injured. they've made some arrests. but anyone who watches this sees a very professiona

paul butler, a professor at georgetown university and jim cavanaugh, he's a retired atf special agent, a former hostage negotiator for the atf. jim cavanaugh, i know you've been studying that first video we got today, pretty much frame by frame today. what do you see in that? >> well, the first thing you see, lawrence, and i think it goes to trying to get inside what mr. scott's experience, and certainly when you talk about what the police are experiencing later, but mr. scott's experiencing, he's not facing the cars arriving, the unmarked police cars, and they arrive first. and, you know, can you imagine, you're not committing a crime. you're not doing anything wrong. you're just sitting there waiting for someone and these unmarked vehicles pull up behind you. and maybe you think you're being robbed. possibly he's confused. what's going on here. and that might explain why he got out with a gun and the officers see that. it takes the marked car. the marked car doesn't arrive first. it looks like the unmarked cars arrive first. then you see the marked unit arrive and a uniformed office

jim cavanaugh is with us again tonight, retired agent special in charge of tobacco and firearms. jim, i assume you're going to join me in saluting the restraint of law enforcement tonight? we had a bit of a tizzy getting people off i-277 and back up off the hill. the state troopers wanted to reopen traffic, but this is -- basically it looks like it could be a walk for charity at night in a beautiful city area. >> really, the city leaders ought to be out and getting more protesters. they're getting flowers out and chanting peace slogans. yeah, they had a hard line at the highway and they kept that. they used a little bit of pressure to push the crowd back from that, and they pushed them a little farther than i thought they would, but they wanted that highway probably for emergency vehicles, brian, as you described it as the beltway. but the big mistake here would be any hard press on this curfew. that would be a huge mistake. i'm sure the commanders in the command post are examining this right now. but if you press this real hard, for what end? you had a complete peaceful night. yo

jim cavanaugh is with us again tonight, retired agent special in charge of tobacco and firearms. jim, i assume you're going to join me in saluting the restraint of law enforcement tonight? we had a bit of a tizzy getting people off i-277 and back up off the hill. the state troopers wanted to reopen traffic, but this is -- basically it looks like it could be a walk for charity at night in a beautiful city area. >> really, the city leaders ought to be out and getting more protesters. they're getting flowers out and chanting peace slogans. yeah, they had a hard line at the highway and they kept that. they used a little bit of pressure to push the crowd back from that, and they pushed them a little farther than i thought they would, but they wanted that highway probably for emergency vehicles, brian, as you described it as the beltway. but the big mistake here would be any hard press on this curfew. that would be a huge mistake. i'm sure the commanders in the command post are examining this right now. but if you press this real hard, for what end? you had a complete peaceful night. yo

jim cavanaugh with us. the new video we just got in, jim, as i looked at the time stamping if in the upper right-hand corner, we're looking at around 8:31 as was said during the press briefing, the news briefing that came in from mayor bill de blasio, as well as the police and fire commissioners as they were looking at it. you said you've done this before. you go through frame by frame by frame. if you can, when you look at the video that's coming from the inside, and you watch the doors move, because they kind of bend in. i don't know by how much. whether it's an inch or two. and then return to their normal state. what is it that you see as a professional, as a former atf agent specializing in such bombs and the aftereffects of the repercussions of that ball of gas, showing that video, the way the glass moved in and by how much it moved probably tells you something, jim? >> well, they can try to estimate the power of the explosives. what happens when the blast concussion wave goes out as day scribe from a s

they were speaking with jim cavanaugh law enforcement expert in how they could basically control that scene right there in downtown -- in downtown charlotte, north carolina. i want to bring in ely portillo who is a reporter for the "charlotte observer." we lost you before. can you give us context of wheey we are in downtown charlotte? this seems to be very much the downtown business district. >> yes, this is sort of the central business district and also the heart of the downtown entertainment district. there's a very large entertainment complex with bars and restaurants and very nice hotels at this corner. >> in toefrerm os the protests night and tonight are they in the same place? >> no, last night was in the suburbs next to some abandoned -- well, not abandoned but some railroad tracks that were not in use. and it was very isolated feel i ing. there were not that many people about. here we're in downtown. there are cars going by and people going about their business who are not sure what's going on. >> as the tear gas is being deployed, but as they've used kind of large volume of t

jim cavanaugh formerly with the atf who candidly also talked us through this weekend's incidents with the bomber in the new york area, given his familiarity with armorments and all things that go boom. jim, we're seeing some plain old fireworks and we're seeing some, what appears to be a combination of tear gas and smoke being fired off as the police line advances. >> that's right, brian. what you're seeing here will have good command. they're going very slowly here. they're analyzing the crowd. the commanders watch a live feed. so they have commanders on scene commanders there, but commanders watching the live feed. and you know, they're making the decisions, and they're making the right decisions. this crowd has really thinned out. a lot of people are curious that are there. you don't see anybody carrying any big weapons or sticks or anything. they had the shooting earlier. and that ramped it up a little bit for them. but i think they've held it pretty steady and i think they stay like this, to get that crowd dispersed, you know get the rest of the night peaceful. and maybe the only

>> well, jim cavanaugh, can you speak to that? the law enforcement, the police chief down there making definitive statements at the var beginning of this, saying that the video is ambiguous, not releasing it, but being definitive in his version of what happened. is that unusual, from a law enforcement standpoint. what was going on there? >> yeah, i think the chief probably should have held his state. that was a good point that was made there by the speaker. because, you know, he may be getting reports up the chain of command that the officer who fired had a gun pointed at him and he's reporting that. really, what he needs to do is say, okay, we're going to investigate it and look at the video himself. i think the video may show that mr. scott had a gun or the object in his hand may not be clear in the video, but it's going to turn out to be a pistol. they're going to have the pistol that's been recovered. maybe traced. i think you see it in the new iphone video. but it's possible mr. scott never pointed the gun. or you can't see t

jim cavanaugh, thank you very much. let's go back to ayman mohyeldin for more information from linden, new jersey. this is the latest image of the suspect involved in this -- police say involved in the bomb attack in chelsea as well as in jersey. ahmad rahami. we are told the mayor is now speaking. let's listen in. this again is the mayor of linden, new jersey. we are working to get the connection going to hear more of what he had to say or has to say here. ayman mohyeldin is there and what can you tell us? >> reporter: as you can see, there was a short briefing taking place here by the mayor and local law enforcement official. they have shed light on what happened here and according to the mayor of linden, new jersey, he explained how this went down. it appears to be according to a tip the police received from an eyewitness who saw an individual sleeping in a vehicle parked on the side of the road. that individual, that eyewitness called police and this was a short time ago. as police approached the vehicle the man in

let's go straight to former atf agent jim cavanaugh. t that you are watching at the moment. we have the pictures here in front of us. it gives us a sense at least of what appears to be farther in the cordons here of what police are doing. what do you think has happened based on the information available so far? >> well, determining the cause of the explosion is going to be task one for the fdny and the nypd. and of course, they've got to decide, you know, what they think caused it. explosions can be caused by a lot of things. of course, everybody bomb runs to the forefront of the mind. it can be gas canisters. something could have been discarded. first thing they have to decide is what caused the explosion. if they think it's a bomb, the vernacular we use is ied. if they decide it is that, they want to sweep for secondaries. but they're going to do an initial incursion in there. the firefighters have already done that, looked pretty quick and gone what is this. was it something in the dumpster next to the gas main? was it some kind of ot

bring in jim cavanaugh, law enforcement analyst. cammy is y i ckam kami, is the central dispute in terms of the facts between what we have been hearing for the family and the errors and the police in charlotte, they have been adamant that he had a gun and the family said that's not the case. does this video help to settle it? >> i'm not sure it settles whether or not he had a gun and even once this video is released, this may be inconclusive as to whether there was something in his hand and what that something was. i think the point and it's relevant if there was the presence of a weapon, but i want to walk us back and realizing that north carolina is an open carry state. lots of people have guns and may have them on their person or in the car. that doesn't give officers a license to kill those people. you have to under legal standard determine whether or not an officer acted reasonably and was the officer being threatened? >> does that mean from a legal standpoint in terms of how the law would look at this, does that mean if he had

joining me, jim cavanaugh, retired atf special agent in charge and an msnbc ad lift. can you tell me what steps are law enforcement taking now to find this man? >> the key to releasing the picture. second, they're going to sweep the mall clean of all the video and try to get more pictures of that assailant and see if they can get video and stills of him arriving by car, walking with somebody, a bicycle, how did he get there. they need pictures of that. probably a vehicle and try to determine who he is, what he's about. >> police say they think he was working alone. does that tell you anything? >> he could be dead in a ditch somewhere. sometimes these guys kill themselves following this violent maniacal homicidal activity they go through. sometimes they shoot themselves. he could be alone. he looks like he's had a long rifle. he went into the macy's store and started shooting people there. i think the photographs should give law enforcement some tips from the public about who he is. if the public knows the guy, they're going to call. the key is to get good photographs

we're joined by law enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh, and a member of the naacp, and katie peralta, with the observer. katie, this rain showers we're hearing about -- just in the last few minutes here the mayor of charlotte weighing in, hillary clinton weighing in. you have the family putting this video out in the hopes of prodding the police department to release the dash cam video and the body cam video at the ha -- what is your sense? >> honestly, i have no idea, it does evoke a lot of emotion, i can say that for certain. people on all sides of this discussion will feel something when they listen to that tape. and i think you will see that playing out over the weekend, the protests, the demonstrations, i think it remains to be seen. what the cmp does, i think it's anybody's guess. >> jim cavanagh, what is your sense about the approximapolice whether keith scott had a weapon, his wife said he doesn't have the weapon. you have the officers saying repeatedly drop the gun, drop the gun, what is your reading here based on this? does it shed any light on it? >> i think it does, steve,

we're joined now by jim cavanaugh, msnbc law enforcement analyst. he is a retired atf special agent, a former hostage negotiator for the atf. jim, i want to get your reaction to what you're seeing in terms of the tactic there's. hard to tell. we have some aerial shots that you've been able to see. and you've heard tammy leitner's reports filled with some details about what is going on there. but what do you make of the tactics versus the size of crowd we're estimating and where you think we might be in the course of all of this now? >> well, i thought your question earlier, lawrence, was spot on of the curve of the way of the tempo of the event. you could tell earlier on that police commanders when they moved that armored bearcat in probably was right after the fatality shooting or critical injury shooting. we're not how it related. >> jim, let me interrupt you for one second. mayor jennifer roberts said something very important during our interview. she was the first to say that there was some doubt as to whether the person who was shot was actually

. >> i would like to welcome to our conversation, jim cavanaugh.you join me here, let's talk about your takeaway, the biggest thing you took away from the news conference. >> well, i think they are probably coming off we don't think it's terrorism shortly and probably today. let's look at facts here. al qaeda's "inspire" magazine, the first edition, they had a pre-edition as well, the first edition on page 40 specifically says, you make pipe bombs, you have three pipe bombs. they have a photograph. you externally wire the pipe bombs for affect. i can tell you in 40 years of bomb investigation basically -- i was a deputy of chief of explosives. i trained a bomb investigators. i knew virtually every bomb in the country. we ran the bomb systems. bombs that are externally fused with electric wire, pipe bombs like that, happen sometimes. but they are unusual events.tel unusually diffused bomb in s seaside park. the next paragraph in the magazine sayseffective way is with a pressure cooker. you have to look at this -- commanders have to look at this form

speaking of investigations, let's bring in jim cavanaugh. special agent in charge of the atf.et's talk about what you think they are looking for right now. it has been by my count about 17 hours since this thing went off. granted, total pand poemonium i the early hours. a lot of people have applauded what they have done there. coming in and gathering evidence. what are they looking for still? >> right. well, there's a process. it's to make organization out of the chaos and bomb investigation is a very specialized csi process. the evidence is blown up, thrown across the street, thrown around the buildings, burned up from the flame, from the concussion. it's a very different than just a typical crime scene. it's a very unique crime scene. that's why the agents and the bomb squad personnel are trained specifically to do it. what they're doing at the scene in chelsea is working the bomb crater, the epicenter of the blast. whether in the dumpster or outside the dumpster. we don't have a clear picture of that yet. they working and picking up the pr fragmentation, any parts that it c