after doing that for however many months i got called into the then editors's office a guy named jim hoage and jim said, ellis i've been reading your viewpoint for schools, what do you think on monday i give you a column for the real newspaper? and i sort of looked at him, again, fully competent 19-year-old, well, mr. hoage, that's what i wanted to do for sure. so i wasn't hired a direct result of a riot but certainly there was, i think, an awareness at that time in that era that newspapers were at their disadvantage by not having -- by having virtually no people of color on staff. >> we both watched this business get shaken to the core, the basic underpinnings of journalism now. if you were running into ellis cose coming out of the west side of chicago now, would you advice him to go into journalism. >> if i would run out of myself from the west side i would say the root is definitely. first of all, i don't know anybody who got hired quite the way i did back then and i think it's a tribute to what i like to consider, you know, the vision of jim hoage who saw this young kid who was sort of