we haven't really talked about jim hodgson as secretary of labor, what was he like? >> hodgson, the "g" is silent. jim is a wonderful human being and a first class -- was a first class secretary. he suffered badly by comparison to george, and george may have been imcomparable in many respects. he did something that hurt him badly. in loyalty to -- there was a -- excuse me, stop. there was a conflict between meany and the administration. i think it involved wage and price controls, but i can't recall exactly what it was. but meany, of course, was at that point allied with the democrats before mcgovern was nominated and is still allied with the democrats in the house and senate at least the northern democrats. and he attacked the white house on something. and hodgson, jim, on his own -- i wish -- i didn't have a chance to consult on that -- was called by somebody in the white house, it could have been colston, urging him to respond in defense of the president. and he attacked meany. i don't think george would have ever done that. because the effectiveness of the secreta

in the meantime, jim hodgson and other cabinet members seemed to spend -- and i occasionally replacing jim spent almost every day at the white house in cabinet-level meetings trying to ameliorate wage and price increases or come up with decisions on various wage and prices across the country which was bizarre. >> in -- >> remember, george schultz was -- john connolly and george schultz both had a role in administering that program and arnie weber was the executive director. and then don rumsfeld was, too. >> well, in an interview with secretary schultz said he was against wage and price control. >> i think it's true. it was connolly that convinced nixon. i'm sure schultz was against it. he hated the idea. so that's why it was amusing that he was put in charge with it. >> in an interview with us vice president cheney talked about how he played a role working for rumsfeld and actually assigning some of these targets, you know, deciding how much of this or that could be produced. i think he gave us an example of the wine industry. >> it was truly bizarre. it was a nightmare. but one funny

jim hodgson worked on that more than i did. i helped a little bit, but jim worked on that more than i did. >> okay. >> it actually turned out that the postal service was -- had as its representative a guy by the name of james blaisdale, who had been the founder of the law firm i had been a partner of in honolulu. and i'd never met him. he had left and come back to the mainland before i came to hawaii. and he was enormously competent and able and he and jim worked a great deal together on that postal strike. >> if i'm not mistaken there is an arena named after blaisdale in honolulu. >> that's a different blaisdale. that's an ex-mayor. that's neil blaisdale. >> did you have any -- i don't know why you would, but just have to ask. did you have any inkling that, "a," your resignation would be requested and, "b," that it would be accepted -- >> no. >> -- in 1972? >> no. all i knew that i could be in a tenuous position because of my obduratness with clay cattrall and colston. but there was speculation in the press that i would succee