jim kavanaugh, you heard and watched it. all of us did. for many people listening on the radio, the video itself had somebody who was ducking down for cover and you saw them lying down on the floor there either at the mall or the walmart as all those shots were heard. what do you make of it, jim? >> -- >> all right, jim kavanaugh. actually, strike that. we'll go to ktsm in el paso talking with do do do do do do. he was like, is that gunshots? i said yes. people were running inside saying there was a shooter. we took off towards the back of the store where the stock room was. we were pushing people out the way and telling them to go. when we did, we ran out towards the back. the employees were telling us to go into the freight containers in the back. we sat there for maybe 20 minutes and then they told us to come out. there were elderly and children getting hot. they told us to go back inside because we heard it again. >> you were telling me how scary of a situation this was. i know you've been out here in the sun and you were evacuated wit

jim kavanaugh, formerly of the atf. we're going to take a quick break. special coverage of the shooting in el paso, texas, continues on msnbc. [farmers bell] ♪ (burke) a "rock and wreck." seen it. covered it. at farmers insurance, we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ bill bratt - how many people love you unconditionally? while you ponder that, consider adopting a rescue pet. there are 6.5 million of them; they all need a forever home. it would mean the world to them, and they will love you forever. - when you're volunteering, "it's not my job."r that's because right where you live, there's a need for your time and skills and effort and talent. please consider volunteering and feeling that feeling that you helped someone today. - - cis choosing to nurtureild and emotionally support children in urgent need. it's not just about opening up your home; it is also about opening up your heart. consider fostering. . >>> our special coverage of the shooting in el paso, texas, continues here on ms

we turn on our breaking coverage to former atf special agent in charge jim kavanaugh. jim, what can you glean from the initial reports that we have? >> well, s.w.a.t. is already on the scene. they've got that place surrounded and know where the shooter or shooters are. so they're getting the civilians out of the nearby hows. you can see that on the news photographs. officers is initially were down behind their vehicles. you could hear on the radio from the philadelphia pd radio they were calling tore long guns asap. patrolling into a hornet's nest there. five officers shot. they got this barricaded one or more in the house. so what the on scene s.w.a.t. commander has to determine is how many shooters are in there and how many innocents could be in there. this could all be settled by one s.w.a.t. long rifle man if the shooter comes to the window. once s.w.a.t. is in position. they're going to lock it down if they can stop the shooting from inside, they'll try to negotiate, but if the shooting continues look for it to be solved by police gunfire. >> we're looking at some

. >> let's bring in jim kavanaugh again. jim, i wanted to get your thoughts about the suspect being from the dallas area. jim kavanaugh, of course, former special agent in charge of the atf. jim, do you make of that? what is law enforcement's response in the dallas area as we speak? >> they're going to that location they've uncovered. like frank says, doesn't mean he was living in dallas or used to live in dallas. that's quite a distance from dallas. it's quite a drive, a number of hours to get to el paso if, in fact, he was still living you know, there are some still images online, nbc hasn't confirmed anything about the shooter going into the store. twunds i've seen, he's carrying a rifle, e. a shooter's hearing protections and shooter's eye protection. i'm not sure those photographs are confirmed, but the ones that media outlets are putting out as the shooter show that. that's quite a state of preparedness. also, the clichÉnykov rifle -- we talked about it all day from witnesses the shots we heard, the semiautomatic fire w

jim kavanaugh is still with me.had a couple of tweets from the president subsequent to his previous tweets. he said today's shooting in el paso, texas, was an act of coward dis. there are no reasons or excuses that will justify killing innocent people. it's not all the way to where it needs to be. but the president sometimes has trouble navigating this territory when news of things that are related to white nationalism tend to come out. does this get us anywhere, this tweet? >> i'm not sure it gets us anywhere. it's the right thing to say, but i'm not sure it's going to change things. you can't demonize people, immigrants or minorities or the people of baltimore or congressmen or muslim is, you can't demonize people and expect that you can come back and everything is nice. you've got to conduct yourself, you know, as a true american citizen no matter what your political elected office is. and, you know, we are all part of america. every single one of us was discriminated for some reason, our people, whatever -- wher

you heard jim kavanaugh talk of his background in the atf in the dallas area.o a significant federal presence there. they'll take action immediately and present themselves to a imaginati magistrate. there's great capabilities there. let's be careful as the facts develop here because the mere fact that saddress or residence mean perhaps he wasn't attending university in el paso or that he was, you know, he was currently residing in el paso but is originally from dallas. we don't know that story yet. but if, indeed, he made that trip, then we're looking at a specific deliberate targeting of that location in el paso. you don't drive ten hours by happenstance and decide to do something like this. then there's some direct connection that caused him to do this at that location. that's going to be teased out by investigative work. >> that be sure, the authorities are right now scouring some locations, at least one location we know of possibly there in the dallas area. frank? >> yeah. they're going to have to develop the residents, whether his parents, family, other re

. >> reporter: nbc law enforcement expert jim kavanaugh says federal surveillance of internet forumsts cannot go and monitor those boards just because there's hate speech. >> reporter: in that online posting detailing his plans before the el paso massacre, the suspected shooter expressed his support for the shooter in new zealand at a massacre earlier this year. that shooter targeting muslims and killing over 50 people in christchurch, posted his own diatribe on the anonymous forum with a link to a live stream of the slayings on facebook a month later a copy cat posted his speech on a similar site before shooting up a san diego synagogue. the director of the fbi saying the agency had made some 100 arrests in domestic terrorism since october. >> a majority of the domestic terrorism cases that we have investigated are motivated by some version of what you might call white supremacist violence. >> reporter: domestic terrorism is different from what the fbi calls home grown violent extremism in the u.s. inspired by global jihadists. >> they all think the race war is coming and they're a

. >> back with us now is former atf agent jim kavanaugh. ur ears were ringing, i was quoting what you were saying yesterday in reference to the el paso shooting, where you said, "these garbage white nationalist screeds posted online are being written by cowards who then go out and kill kids and innocent people. it spreads just like with isis and al qaeda. it's nothing new. just repackaged for the digital age." expound on that. >> well, let's take you back historically. you know, there was a notorious meeting of organized hate in estes park, colorado, in 1992, and it was the klansmen, the militias, the antigovernment extremists, haters, the neo-nazi pasto pastors, and they met there in the mountains. and lewis beam, the notorious klansman, issued a writing at that meeting about leaderless resistance. and it was on the heels of all of us in the federal service and law enforcement breaking up a lot of these klan and nazi groups by infiltrating them. i mean, we were infiltrating those claverns and groups and taking down their conspiracies. i mea

jim kavanaugh, former special agent in charge at the atf, and nate snyder, senior counterterrorism officialthe obama administration. thank you all for being here. jim, let me start with you just big picture here. what is causing the phenomenon that the fbi director was talking about there, increasingly the threats that they are seeing here in the united states, the domestic terrorism cases are motivated by white supremacy or white nationalism? >> while, white supremacy has descended. we are truly, in fact, kasie, in the '60s. i know that era. i chased the nazis in my career. i looked yesterday on the website at the southern property law center just to count the number of civil righaoeutights on their memorial. 38 people were killed, including four girls at the baptist church, three at the freedom writers case, vernon don ger. we have exceeded this number, grossly exceeded this number with the emanuel church, the sikh temple, the synagogue. and new zealand, the numbers are revolting. we are worse in the murders of minority citizens than we were in the '60s. so we are in a very bad place. whi

. >> reporter: expert jim kavanaugh says federal surveillance of internet forums is restricted. >> federalor those boards. >> reporter: in that online posting detailing his plans, the shooter expressed his support for the shooter in new zealand at a massacre earlier this year. that shooter targeted muslims and killing over 508 people in christ church, posted his own diatribe on the anonymous forum with a link to a live stream of the slayings on facebook a month later a copycat posted his own speech on a similar site before shooting up a san diego synagogue. the director of the fbi saying the agency had made some 100 arrests for domestic terrorism since october. >> a majority of the domestic terrorism cases that we've investigated are motivated by some version of what you might call white supremacist violence. >> reporter: domestic terrorism is different from what the fbi called homegrown violent extremism inspired by global jihadists. >> they think the race war is coming. >> reporter: ben collins says the racially motivated terror taking root on the internet is not far off fref classic ter

let's go back to jim kavanaugh. i noted the scene in ohio. atf agents have arrived on-scene.ere? >> they provide the full services of law enforcement. special agent, is their title. they w they will be tracing the weapon. the 223, the most common 223 is an ar-15. that's a military style rifle. most likely on semiautomatic fire. >> it was an ak-47. give me a difference of the ar-15 and an ak-47. the kalashnikov, the "k" of ak, and ar-15, m-16 for the military. the ar-15 for the civilian use. it's the united states and nato allies weapon. it's the world's, you know, split. the old soviet block and the u.s. uses its allies. that's how the weapon is designed. the ar-15 or m-16, it has a couple different name e -- it'sc and easy to carry. the chief said, one minute to take him down. he could have gotten 30 rounds off. there's 9 dead and 16 wounded. he would achieve that in one magazine. >> he was in plenty of capacity of magazines. i want to bring in dr. john torres joining me on-set, so we can talk about what happened here. these hospitals, both of them, quite overwhelmed. i know

. >> and if you remember when we first started covering this we were talking to jim kavanaugh formerly of the atf and clint watts and their experience with these kinds of things led them to say on saturday night this guy is not going to clam up. in this case not -- he's not the kind of guy who is going to claim his miranda rights and not want to talk until he's got a lawyer. the idea that you post something online and you've got that kind of mission, and he's alive, not shot by police, probably means he wants to tell them. and it looks like from the moment he was apprehended he was telling them stuff. >> as a matter of fact, ali, you're absolutely right. he waived his myranda rights. this young man wanted to talk about what he did. obviously in seeing that he posted this screen online, he wanted people to know that these were the thoughts that he has had for quite some time. he made that clear in that document. he made it clear to the detectives of the el paso police department. and now here it is for law enforcement. and now for the world to see. >> jacob, thank you for your reporting

clint watts and jim kavanaugh join me right now. two of them were with me last night. a special agent who has dealt with terrorism. jim of the atf. this is an interesting evolution in the conversation, to have the texas land commissioner and rod rosenstein, saying what you have been saying for some time. there's something that matters, getting the public to understand. the danger of white nationalist domestic terrorism is the greatest threat most people face right now. clint? >> that's right. this issue going to the election. president trump supporters were hot on militant extremism. they need to call it what it is. it is clear that we have a white nationalism problem in this country. we've seen repeated attacks. we're seeing attacks inspiring each other. this is a similar pattern. if we don't call it what it is, if we don't put the pieces together, we don't demonstrate that the attacks are related, we're hindering the federal, state and local law enforcement's ability to preempt the next attack. we need to network against them just like other terrorist groups. we built

. >> reporter: nbc law enforcement expert jim kavanaugh says federal surveillance is not allowed.ng his plans, the suspected shooter expressed his support for the shooter in new zealand at a massac massacre earlier this year, targeting muslims and killing over 50 people in christ church, posting his own diatribe with a link to the live streams of the slayings on facebook. a copy cat posted his own speech on a similar site before shooting up a san diego synagogue. at a senate hearing last month, the director of the fbi saying the agency has made some hundred arrests related to domestic terrorism since october. >> a majority of the domestic terrorism cases that we have investigated are motivated by some version of what you might call white supremacist violence. >> domestic terrorism is different from what the fbi calls home grown violent extremism inspired by global jihadists. nbc news reporter, ben collins said the racially motivated terror taking root on the internet is not far off from classic terror cells. >> it's internet driven, all people in different basements throughout the

. >> i'm also joined on the phone by jim kavanaugh, msnbc. t to jim on cam, a former atf analyst. hey, jim, what does it tell you, and i just spoke with your colleague from the fbi, previously, frank, the fact that the atf has been called into this as well? do you think it is as frank suggested evidence of multiple agencies working effectively together? is there anything special because atf is called in as well? >> well, atf and fbi both respond a lot of times on gun violence, but what it tells you when they're responding today is it's likely not something the officers, the patrol division can sort out real quick like, you know, a couple of gang members shooting each other, which is not unusual in any city in america. and they don't always call out atf and the fbi for those things. and like frank said, likely you have the sheriffs, the el paso county sheriff s.w.a.t. teams there, el paso pd s.w.a.t., atf has -- we call it srt but it's a s.w.a.t. team, fbi has s.w.a.t. so there's plenty of help. texas department of public safety and other depar

. >> reporter: jim kavanaugh says federal surveillance is restricted. >> federal agents cannot monitorrds just because there's hate speech. >> reporter: the suspected shooter expressed his support for the shooter in new zealand in a massacre earlier this year. that shooter targeting muslims and killing over 50 people in christ church posted his own diatribe on the anonymous forum with a link to a live stream of the slayings on facebook. a copy cat later did the same before shooting up a san diego synagog synagogue. the director of the fbi saying there are 100 arrested related to domestic terrorism since october. >> a majority of the domestic terrorism cases that we've investigated are motivated by some version of what you might call white supremacist violation. >> reporter: domestic terrorism is different from home grown violent extremism in the u.s. inspired by global jihadist. >> they all think the race war is coming and they're part of it. >> reporter: ben collins says the racially motivated terror on the internet is not far off from classic terrorist cells. >> it's people in differ