joining me is jim lewis, a senior fellow for the center of strategic and international studies who is one of the world's leading experts on u.s. military cyber operations. jim, welcome to the show. >> thanks for having me >> what do we know about flame and the stuxnet and the role. >> flame and stuxnet are very different. it was a program used to collect intelligence. this morning i was trying to think how many of these i've seen. i got up to 12 when i stopped. this is just part of espionage in the world today, big programs that collect a lot of information. stuxnet was different because it had a special part that went directly after industrial control systems. it destroyed machinery, so stuxnet was like a weapon, flame was like espionage. >> which has been a tool that's been universeally applied whether it's from %b'xsiowovm@ it really wasn't that big a deal. >> how successful have these offensive cyber operations and stuxnet is the one we know the most about, but it's been reported there are numerous other ones that have been used, how successful have they been in disrupting iran's