holtzman compared to flowers and jim manm, but it was more effective for them to do it than for any lawyer to do it. any lawyer to do it. at least in the context of an impeachment proceeding, namely the house impeachment proceeding rather than a trial in the senate. >> bernie, what is it you don't like about pencils? >> oh, yes, i've heard this, yes. no, of course, i'm a very laid-back guy, as everybody can see. i think people remember me breaking pencils. they were government pencils. i said, i'll pay for the pencils. i would walk around sometimes snapping pencils. but i don't do that anymore. i'm a little older now. i don't snap pencils. still when i try a case, i get wound up. trial work is tough work. but it's fascinating. >> mr. doar was very careful about keeping his cards close to his chest. >> yes. >> but listening to the tapes had an effect on him, didn't it? >> yes. yes. it confirmed -- we all believe ed that the president really acted -- there really was a misuse. it was wrong to break into the headquarters of your political opponents. it's wrong to wiretap. it's wrong to break