and sometimes, whether we like it or not, and this is where my friend jim pasco is talking about, if they get -- if they have to get elected because they have to, you know, badmouth management publicly, then that's what my friend from sacramento was talking about in terms of character. you have to make a decision. is this job really worth me becoming a different kind of person to get re-elected? so i think we have to do more with labor to educate new chiefs and new union presidents, that you get more working together. now, if someone steps outside and, you know, is disrespectful, that changes the dynamic. but we shouldn't go back to square one. you know, the days of the public reading in the paper that management and unions and no confidence votes, you know, no one gets helped by that. no one -- no one is safer because of that. we have enough examples. and with the way the public feels about the police today, we have a lot of work to do. people talk about, we need to change the culture of policing. how do you change the culture of the policing without cops? right? chiefs can't do it

we'll next hear from jim pasco. he's the long-time executive director of f.o.p., the fraternal order of police. >> thank you, ms. robinson and the commissioner. i appreciate the opportunity to be here. i thank the rest of the panel. this is the point at which having heard from three distinguished management representatives at various levels the union guy comes in and tries to eviscerate every assertion just heard. and unfortunately for me because it doesn't leave me with much to say, i didn't have much to disagree with with any of the assertions i've just heard. the bigger problem. and we have participated in all these discussions hosted by the cops office and perth and we feel we have learned from them and hopefully management has gained some insite from them as well. the bigger problem is not going to be how the participants in those round table discussions go forward but how we proselytize that and make other chiefs and other local union presidents see that there's a better way of getting things done than is curr

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