including jimmy hoffa, eugene debs. and now with roger stone, president trump has to take on whatever political heat he gets because that's exactly how the framers designed the pardon power. in fact, political backlash is about the only check on the pardon hour. >> i wonder, as someone who is not a legal expert, help us walk lieu the decision on commutation versus actually pardoning stone. >> exactly. a pardon is a forgiveness of the crime. but a commutation really only ends or limits a then-existing sentence. so the person is still guilty of the crime. it's just their sentence is cut short. it's much better of course to get a pardon because that erases for the most part -- there are still some lingering records of your conviction, but it's better to get a pardon. but most prisoners would take a commutation if they get it. strangely, of the statistically commutations are less common than pardons. >> josh this all happens against the backdrop of a raging pandemic. the death toll stands at 135,000 across the country. five