c-span: and who is joan braden? >> guest: she is a journalist and has worked in public relations and other jobs. she had a job years ago for nelson rockefeller. she was a friend of the kennedys and one of the original people in the camelot circle and the wife of columnist tom braden. and so bob... c-span: they're still married? >> guest: they're still married, and neither of them disavow the relationship. there's a triangle there. there's bob mcnamara traveling with mrs. braden in their friendship, and there's no divorce in the braden household. they still live together and she professes to be in love with both of them, so this is apparently a solution to bob mcnamara's need for companionship. c-span: you write in your epilogue on page 606, "most of the lessons drawn from mcnamara's life have been negative: the management by numbers ruined america's manufacturing know-how, that the banks' lending left poorest countries with crippling debt, that the deceits and subterfuges of vietnam disillusioned a generation with g