joining us is michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson. secretary benson, where do things stand now with the michigan board of canvassers? >> currently, as you mentioned, aaron van langerfeld has been replaced by another member of the republican party. we're seeing efforts to replace certifiers at the local level, as well, with individuals who are perhaps more willing to do the will of their party over protecting the will of the voters when in close elections or any election in the future. it's very troubling. it's a reflection of a broken system that importantly could be misused by either side, but that we saw in particular in 2020 abused and misused by appointees of the republican party who -- some of whom threatened to violate the law and not do their jobs and not certify the election. and i anticipate this is only going to become a bigger problem in future elections. >> what are the potential risks of these folks being in these positionses? what is the worst case scenario? what if they were in these positions in 2020 with all of the pr

the comments that he made over the weekend on social media, are calling for jocelyn benson, secretary state of michigan, to be tried by a jury with the power to sentence her to the death penalty, or a firing squad, and it is rather dramatic. this is the rhetoric that south. there i think, it's worth thinking about whether this is really about decertifying the 2020 election, or about building the case for a couple things. new laws in 2022 that go even further than some of the new laws regarding voting. and about getting particular candidates to run for office, as we head into the midterm elections, who will take a different tact. >> yeah, i think, that's very true. it's a reminder of the threat, in some ways, at a political level. it's like putting a loaded gun on the table, when mike lindell calls you up, and you are like okay after go meet with mike lindell, who's got some math teacher body who says there is an algorithm -- the hot breath of that is on your neck. that i think, has real consequences, for how all these political figures are operating, in that environment. amy gardner,

. >> reporter: for democrats like jocelyn benson running for election for secretary of state -- >> everythinge've overcome this far was truly just the beginning. it's not hyperbolic to look at 2020 as a prelude to a much more significant challenge to our democracy loom ago head of us with the 2024 election. >> reporter: for these folks still running for elected office, it's still a little unclear what their path forward is going to be. a number of them are facing republican primaries. they're going to face off against democrats in the general election. it's true of these candidates in michigan, and in a number of these other battleground states. >> sara murray, thank you very much. >>> i want to turn to republican election lawyer ben ginsburg. ben, it's goiod to see you, sir. thank you for joining us. we heard in sara murray's story how experts are concerned that the big lie and the insurrection on january 6th, they're just the rehearsals to outright steal the election in 2024. how real is this threat? >> well, there are a lot of pieces that are going in place that means people should be on g

. >> reporter: for democrats like jocelyn benson, running for re-election as secretary of state is acracy are far from over. >> everything we have overcome this far was truly just the beginning, and it's not hyperbollic to look at 2020 as a prelude to a much bigger, much more significant challenge to our democracy that is looming ahead of us with the 2024 presidential election. >> reporter: tisio, maddock either declined our requests for comment. for the folks who need to run for office it's unclear what their path forward will look like. a lot of them have republican primaries and then a general election. that's true in michigan and a number of other states where trump has thrown his support behind others who think he was the victor in 2020. >> we cannot say it loudly or more strongly enough how important reports like you just did are because this is, as people have said, so many times, it's possible 2020 was really a dress rehearsal for what's to come. thank you so much, sara. appreciate it. >>> also in our politics lead, the biden administration is taking aim at texas once again.

. >> for democrats like jocelyn benson, running for re-election as sec re sretary of state, it sign thely just the beginning and it's not hyperbolic to look at 2020 as a prelude to a much bigger, much more significant challenge to our democracy that is looming ahead of us with the 2024 presidential election. >> i mean, sara, she sort of raises the crucial question, right? you are talking about people who are pushing trump's lies about 2020 running for these crucial administration, you know, election administration positions. are any of them, from your reporting, poised to win their campaigns and get those slots? >> you know, this is still a really open question. when you talk to operatives in some of these states, including michigan. in michigan, these candidates are going to be in republican primaries. they are going to face democrats in the general election and it's still very unclear what's going to happen to their candidacies. that's true of a lot of other battleground states where trump has chosen these kind of big lie folks to run for a number of these position. erin, we should al

joins us now is jocelyne benson.nts in a totally different way. with chills up and down my arms after reading about what is happening in michigan. tell me how real this threat is that the election in michigan could be subverted. >> it's very real. and it's something that we were aware of in 2020 and that we were strategically in partnership with folks on both sides of the aisle to prevent. one, this is a very real threat. there are already more people in places of authority, in michigan, the local level, and the state level, than there were in '20, and some have stated they could be willing to abuse or misuse their ministerial role as a canvasser to fail to certify an election. if that happens, it doesn't necessarily mean the election results ultimately won't be certified. there are court protections and laws in place right now to protect the will of the people. what it does create is more space for confusion and to continue a narrative of illegitimacy of not just the election, but of those who rightfully win the ele

we also had before this committee jocelyn benson, the secretary of state of michigan, and so i asked her the question because of their vote by mail, if they had reviewed and they had done a search for that type of fraud, and she had, and she sent us a letter that laid out every step of the way how they insure it's citizens voting. and had found zero cases there. as far as i'm aware, we have zero cases in oregon, and oregon initiated vote by mail. we did have in oregon over the course of a decade in which 61 million ballots were cast, sustained cases of 38 cases of voter fraud, so i'm not saying it doesn't exist. the two main types of voter fraud were somebody filling out a ballot in one state like in a primary or general election and then moving to another state and filling out a ballot in their new state. that's certainly not a coordinated criminal strategy to undermine the legitimacy of elections, i would believe. >> i would agree with you. that's the same kind of instances we're seeing in arizona. >> that led me to my next question of what kind of problems did you find? did you fi

. >> i want to play something that michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson said on this program earlierhys. a lot of it is donald trump, but they're all now hostages of their disinformed and frothy base. let me show you what she said. >> the energy is on the side of those who believe falsely that the election was, quote, unquote, stolen. we're seeing a lot more intensity, a lot more frustration or anger and engagement, frankly, among those who are believing these lies and their leaders who are also continuing to stoke the fires around this deception. the time is now to step up and ensure, as voters, as citizens, as active members of our communities, that we're telling the truth, that we are ensuring people running our elections are committed to truth and to the law and to the constitution and democracy and if we don't do that work over the next year, then we will be in a perilous position come 2024 to again protect our democracy against the attacks that i believe will return and will be stronger, perhaps, and more powerful than they were in 2020. >> so, marc, she's in a state where a de