let's see. >> joining me now is paul butler, jill winebanks, and joe conason. let's start with you on this, paul. donald trump, one of his lawyers, ty cobb issued a statement on wednesday saying i've only been asked about pardons by the press and have routinely responded on the record that no pardons are under discussion or under consideration at the white house. he represents the white house in the russia probe. he's one of trump few remaining lawyers. trump has tweeted about pardons. on july 22, 2017 he tweeted while all agree the u.s. president has the complete power to pardon, why think of that when only crime so far is leaks against us. fake news. sort of trying to deflect it. if donald trump did try to get michael flynn out of dodge, pardon him and pardon paul manafort, would that be obstruction? >> absolutely. the presidential pardon power is broad, but not absolute. it's not complete. a president can't sell his pardon power. he can't use the pardon power like a slush fund to buy silence from witnesses in an investigation. if you do that, there's a phras

man of the world author joe conason dealing with clinton foundation and his work in africa. his investigative reports from the philippines help to topple the regime editor-in-chief of the national memo from the new york observer he was there when jared kushner was there in 2006 and it is possible he could soon be in the witness protection program. [laughter] also the right wing propaganda machine is another of his books also a frequent guest on msnbc and start the discussion we will start off charlie you should really read this book. [laughter] i think deems the conservative that liberals love to love but charlie has given us a candid description so what is the anecdote? what is the conservative movementnt do in light of your observations? the movement of a distinguished past many speakers here this weekend talk about as a brand to talk about your book is there an anecdote? >> and it does strike me that the event like this underlies the importance that words and ideas matter and they have consequences and if there is an anecdote it is to restore those norms. is there an anec