joey jackson and ashleigh banfield are with me on set. if he goes to terre haute and talk about the appeals, i think it's just worth repeating, some of the family members and certainly the youngest of those victims, martin richard and his parents who came forward who said we hope he isn't sentenced to death because we don't want to be put through appeal after appeal after appeal and be dragged through this. you can't blame him. you only hope that he has this mandatory appeal as you were discussing and like timothy mcveigh no more. >> he walked from all the others yeah. >> think about this for a moment though. let's just say that he does go through the appellate process. let's just say it's overturned. nobody should be concerned about the life that dzhokhar tsarnaev would live otherwise. he was sentenced to multiple life sentences. the boy is 21, i believe. that amounts to about 60 or 70 years in effectively solitary confinement, 60 to 70 years. think about what a life sentence for a kid who is 21 means. he's not going anywhere any time ev

let's talk about with criminal defense attorney joey jackson. joey, the guy confessed. a defense for him? sure. good morning. as a defense attorney, two types of cases really. those you could prevail and ones you cannot. the ones you can prevail on, you challenge everything, ballistics. you challenge it because you have a shot. in the alternative cases like this are not winnable and that is the reality check you have with your client. why? because there is a confession. because there are witnesses. because there's surveillance and because it was you. in those cases, you go down the list of what might prevail. you look at, you know, choice a. is there some type of mental defense that we can proffer? in this case, i don't think so for a variety of reasons. there is the gun. there is plotting. carrying that gun there and staying there for an hour and there is the killing and making statements that are outrageous concerning why he had to do this. then the consciousness of guilt associated with his flight. so i don't think that you could establish -- you didn't know right fr

let's bring back hln legal analyst joey jackson.and that the judge set bail at $1 million just to sent a message and he claims that the district attorney created these fill in the blank arrest warrants and claims that bikers were not cooperating. how do you determine, and i wonder if you think that they really have a strong case here. >> good morning, victor. they may very well have, and let's start with the premise of the lawsuit, and that is that each individual person in the event that they were engaged in a crime, those facts should be articulated and made specific to what misconduct, if any, they engaged in as opposed to a cookie cutter approach. there's two sides to this, victor, of course. on the one hand we expect and anticipate that police officers, a, detect crime and that they, b, are in a position to deter any criminal activity and so you have to give them some leeway to detect crime and go after crime and root it out and ensure that this is not going to happen in our town so to speak. at the same time you have to do tha

joey jackson, it's troubling, thank you. appreciate the insight. thank you for watching.y colleague wolf blitzer takes it from here. >> hello, i'm wolf blitzer. it's 1:00 in washington, 6:00 p.m. in london, 7:00 p.m. in rome, 8:00 p.m. in moscow. wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us. >>> 12 days on the run, 16 square miles, more than 10,000 acres searched, 1400 leads followed up but still two escaped murderers here in the united states have managed to elude authorities. at a news conference just a little while ago, police announced they are expanding their search for these two convicted killers. >> today the search for escaped inmates richard matnd

i'm joined by hln legal analyst joey jackson and criminologist danny.g to both of you. >> good morning. >> let's start with the office asking frontal boundary for a crackdown on drugs in the area. does that mean moseley should recuse herself? >> that's a big jump carol, but here's the defense's theory. the initial theory is the suspect. in a case two factors can justify an initial step. one f somebody fleece unprovoked and part two can be if they're in a high crime area. well in this particular case that high crime area was established by the state's attorney specifically asking police to patrol not just that area not just that neighborhood but that specific intersection. from there the jump to should she recuse herself is admittedly a large kasim. after all, in every area of prosecution some orders have filtered down from the state's attorney police chief, or something. but it is an interesting argument that if moseby directly ordered patrols in this particular area then did she create that level of police activity that led to this initial thought. >>

joey jackson an hln legal analyst and criminal defense attorney and midwin charles a criminal defense attorney. we have to bring it back to what this indictment really says. okay. the affidavit says, he is alleged to have banking patterns that are illegal and lying about banking patterns and to back that up the fbi says because the money was supposed to be going as hush money effectively to cover up past misdeeds. so now fast forward to today, and we have this case of another what seems like misdeed. how does it play into the already existing case? >> it depends who you talk to. if you talk to the defense attorney and their team what they're going to say the indictment is about what it is, if there's a lie to the fbi, the prosecution then has to prove that lie and what is the lie. the fbi investigates and they say hey, what are you doing this for with regard to taking out your money? is this for you? do you not trust the banking system. what does he say, you're right i don't and it's for me. that's a lie. to that extent the defense is going to say nothing about sexual misconduct or al

we have hln legal analyst and criminal attorney joey jackson. od to have you with us this morning. we'll look at the charges here. pleaded not guilty to both felony and misdemeanor charges with the most serious being promoting prison contraband. how do you start to build this defense with a client who has been so forthcoming with the information about what she is handing over to these escapees. >> sure, victor, good to be with you. and that certainly will play in her favor, ultimately. and just taking a step back before moving forward, there are very strict rules in prison regarding even, you know, speaking with inmates, establishing relationships with inmates. and that goes for correction officers who i represent in my other life in addition to other civilian employees who are there. it is for this reason because the closeness of that relationship makes you vulnerable. so here we have a woman charged with the charges, which we should look at and examine, but the question then becomes how does she get out from under this and what the potential pe

joining us to talk about this, joey jackson. joey, let's first go with just talking specifically about the case and the federal charges. what we're learning about these potential three victims, will they have any impact on this case or these charges? >> well, good morning, victor. here's the issue. the bottom line is that there's something that needs to be proved in the indictment. and that's twofold. the first issue that needs to be proven is whether or not he lied to the fbi. that issue has nothing at all to do certainly with prior victims of any type of abuse, so his lawyers are going to be arguing that that shouldn't be factored in the actual charges or in any type of sentencing. the second issue has to do with the structuring of any type of transactions that were financial, and certainly that issue as well, the attorneys will argue has very little to do with any type of transactions that were structured. obviously the whole purpose that those transactions were structured in that way, victor, was to evade the requirements and

we want to bring in hln legal analyst joey jackson and former attorney dean ogadala. you for being here. joey, good to see you. dean, how do you react concerning the shooter's family? >> well, i think they were completely misplaced. and i can understand on some level if you really stretch the imagination as to why he's saying that, but this time the first hearing of this defendant, the focus should be on the grieving families and what they are going through. not the family of the shooter. so today they were totally inappropriate and really uncaring, to be honest with you. >> joey, i think a lot of people feel the same way dean does. and they wonder how a judge with this kind of past chose to preside over a bond hearing that is a potential hate crime case. >> sure, it's a great question. and we should also point out that following this he'll have no other interaction or contact with this case. it will go to a circuit court and be before a judge, but that's then and we are dealing with now. the reality is that in this forum, christi, and in any forum a judge is not an ad

we have with us hln legal analyst and criminal defense attorney joey jackson. th a bit of mitchell's first court appearance. listen. >> the defendant is charged here with two offenses, including misdemeanor criminal facilitation in the fourth degree and felony promoting prison contraband in the first degree. do you waive a more formal charlgs? >> yes, your honor. at this time [ inaudible ] the complaints -- both charges. >> facilitation and promoting contraband, make it plain for us. >> good morning, victor. whenever you're in a facility, it's supposed to be secured and you can't introduce anything into that facility which would endanger someone that has caused them serious injury and result potentially in their death or assist and aid in a prison's escape. anything could be deemed contraband generally into a facility. is there a distinction between just contraband, which when you go on a visit, a visitor can bring or, in this case, an employee can bring a cell phone in, you could bring food in, a pen, a piece of paper and that could be deemed contraband because

so let's bring in hln legal analyst and criminal defense attorney joey jackson. puts it and then to put that right up against the fbi's own definition of an act of terrorism, is there a conflict here? >> good afternoon, fredricka. i think there is. you know there's a way to talk about this i think practically in theory and then in practice. and first, if you look at the definition as i understand it and it's not only what the fbi says it is. there's a federal law governing what domestic terrorism is. so if you engage in a dangerous act, which is against violation of any law in the united states and it's done with the intention to coerce a civilian population that's terrorism. and so you know, the fbi will be guided by the director's judgment but in terms of what the law says there's no political component. the reality is if you engage in an activity, and the basis of you doing that is to coerce and to intimidate, that constitutes terrorism and that's a theoretical way to look at it and that's you know what the law says. from a practical perspective, this terrorist

joey jackson, elizabeth cohen, he is right. great reporting. so much. >>> up next, tracking a terror suspect. the man who allegedly plans to behead an activist, then go after cops had been on the fbi's radar for years, and the suspect knew it. >>> then, an eight-minute trip in a police transport van for a different man goes horribly wrong. this man goes into the van, he appears to be healthy, but when he arrives at the other end of his trip, he's unresponsive, then slips into a coma and later dies. his friends and family, they want to know what happened. when you're living with diabetes, steady is exciting. only glucerna has carbsteady, clinically proven to help minimize blood sugar spikes. so you stay steady ahead. toyou use the most innovative technology available. to craft a more luxurious vehicle, you use the most skilled hands on earth. like ones that spend 38 days creating a lexus ls steering wheel. or 2,000 hours calibrating an available mark levinson audio system. the high-tech, handcrafted lexus ls. luxury, uncompromised. this is the p

let's talk about with joey jackson. good morning to you, joey.e like this that is high profile and racially sensitive, is it a sign, as in this case, the chief magistrate, or is it random, or are past statements and reprimands taken into consideration? >> good morning, victor. a judge has a job and that job in this particular case is to inform the defendant of what the charges are and to, otherwise, set bail. that's it. generally, at a sentencing hearing, or some other type of pronouncement, if it's a bench trial and you're giving statements of fact and making conclusions of law, then it's perfectly appropriate for the judge to opine and to give their thorough of the case and otherwise their reasoning and logic which underlies what they are doing. when-the-a forum like this when the job is to allow a family to give words if they would like to and on could be a therapeutic experience and if your job is to set bail, it's highly unusual to, you know, give your point of view as to the earth and the world. so it's seemingly not in keeping with general

the criminal defense horn hln legal analyst joey jackson. this alleged killer he went to this bible study where there are a limited number of people. if he wanted to kill a lot of people he could have gone to the church on a sunday morning. >> it could be we don't know all the answers to that why that particular as much as at that particular time. maybe we'll never know. but they'll be looking to try to talk about that with him. >> if these churches asked you for advice whether to beef up security at this sensitive moment what would you say? >> i'd say maybe temporarily. for a short time just because of a copycat killer that might be out there. not for the long run. >> i agree with tom. we're hoping this was a one-off, one-time deal with a real bad guy and hoping no one else is going to do a copycat crime. >> as you know roof was targeting these victims allegedly because of their race. in this picture you see him wearing a jacket. that's not the picture i want to show. there's a jacket of him with a sweatshirt he's got an apartheid-era south

joining me to talk more about this legal analyst joey jackson. orning, joey. >> good morning, carol. >> tell us about this hearing and what it will entail. juno it's pretty routine, carol. what ends up happening is in federal court you're presented with your attorney. at that time the judge says look has your attorney reviewed the indictment with you? those are the charges that you face. are there any issues with the indictment? thereafter you enter a plea which, of course is not guilty and at that time conditions of release are set and generally they're negotiated in advance. your released on what's called personal recognizance bond which is a fancy way of saying we're going to ensure you return to court under some conditions. so it's really a pro forma type of appearance. not many fireworks and a date is set to come back in the future. that's when the fireworks occur, at the time of trial should there be a trial in this case. >> i think if he shows up and enters the courtroom that's when the fireworks will occur b.a.s.e. there's many journalists

also with me cnn criminal defense analyst and also defense attorney joey jackson.uys thank you very much for being here. it is incredibly disturbing to read that not only about this one priest but about a number of priests that the prosecutor here in minnesota is saying you did nothing, you basically turned a blind eye, right, joey? >> oh absolutely. and, you know, it's important to note poppy, that it's really a dual approach the county attorney is taking dual in that there's a criminal complaint of course that's filed against the archdiocese, you know, basically charging the archdiocese with turning a blind eye ashgs louing minors to be abued and not doing anything about it. there are several counts in that complaint, six of them. the other approach is a civil complaint that was filed and that's important, poppy, and i'll tell you why. it's important because the criminal complaint obviously addresses issues of punishment and issues of deterrence. what the civil complaint does is address remedial issues that is what are we going to do about it and that is the cour

i want to bring in our legal analyst danny se valleys and legal analyst joey jackson back with me asjust to be clear, no one is charging denny hastert with any kind of sex crime, but the feds told cnn this does have to do with sex, that allegations against him with regard to the money he took out in chunks to pay to individual a had to do with sex, with a palmale, he kn when he was teacher. with that in mind why would there not be a extortion charge? >> that is a good question and the answer is be, prosecutors have an overwhelming amount of discretion and the discretion is and backing up a little bit, understanding that this apparently from the indictment says in 2010, there was some underlying agreement between denny hastert and individual a and that underlying agreement was for $3.5 million and that underlyiie inagreement said in event you pay me $3.5 million, you know what, the prior misconduct allegedly relating to sexual abuse of a minor, the male, individual a, will be kept secret and you can make the argument certainly coming to someone and coercing them to say, i'll be quiet,

joey jackson, what's your analysis? >> it is as follows.inly we don't know exactly what occurred. on the face of it it is very troubling. do we believe our lying eyes? the fact is that officers need to use force in certain instances where there is an imnegligency of the threat. if you feel threat and you have to respond accordingly. if someone is on the ground not seemingly fighting back. to strike blows gratuitously seem to be not in keeping with departmental protocol and perhaps worse with regard to a district attorney investigation as to the force used here and its appropriateness. it doesn't appear on the face of it that it is appropriate at all. >> what is your reaction? >> i'm going to tell you the truth, to be perfectly honest with you, regardless of whatever the context of what brought them to that scene. that piece of footage that we are looking at there is very, very disturbing and very hard to watch. i mean they're holding him down. you have one police officer there that is just wailing on this guy. it doesn't make any sense from

let's bring in hln legal analyst joey jackson.s being charged with assisting the prisoners, a felony. but one has to wonder if and when these inmates are apprehended might she be looking at other charges, too, potentially? >> fredricka good morning to you. what happens that the prosecution leveled initial charges against her. to be clear, they are promoting you know really prison contraband. and whenever you put something inside a facility that could potentially be dangerous, or in this case assist in the actual escape of a prisoner, that's a problem, it's a d-felony in new york. you can get up to seven years for it. and then of course the misdemeanor whenever you provide the means or the opportunity for someone to do a felony engage in that act, that's a criminal offense too. but i think at this point the prosecution is walking a fine line could we see the upgrading of charges? of course could that upgrading unfortunately coincide with something these prisoners may do as they're on the outside? of course but they also need her, t

joey jackson to you.o someone in perhaps worse shape than they would like do you start trying to talk to him now? do you start trying to get information from him now? >> you know there's imperative of course to get information and get it as soon as you probably can. at the same time, there's realities. realities are you get information when he's medically capable and able to provide it. why? it would be more reliable than in the event he's in half induced coma or what have you. i think what they'll do is they'll wait until a time he's stabilize and doctors think it's appropriate and okay for him to speak and be in the condition to cooperate. we should also say having this discussion cooperation is certainly not guaranteed. certainly they'll make inducements to him. i add this from a prosecution perspective, there's little incentive he has. he's serving a life sentence. what can you do? do things to make his life comfortable in the facility. that may be enough to induce his cooperation. he's a are treasure

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that's what joey jackson said next.tion will he not, of taking this just before a judge? >> absolutely. the defense attorney can wave a jury and the case will be heard by a judge. watch this strategy as it unfolds whether they seek not guilty by reason of insanity. it would be easier to convince a judge as compared to 12 people do your research. if this judge is fairly liberal or fairly conservative a judge could determine his guilt or innocence and a judge could determine whether he gets life or the death penalty under capital murder cases or charges law in south carolina. if i was a defense attorney, i would i thinking about that along with his mental illness and trying to prove that. >> thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. how will the gun debate be shaped by what we saw in charleston as we head into the 2016 election? we'll tell you what the president is saying about the, quote, unquote, new normal and how he will not act like this should be that. we'll hear from some of the candidates. what are they sayi

and we have cnn legal analyst joey jackson. that piece that martin was just talking about, in the findings the family did not want to be interviewed. is that correct? >> caller: christie, as you know the investigation took some time. and apparently the mother of tamir rice just had much reservation and she chose not to. >> i'm sorry. is walter still with us? we're having a hard time. >> caller: i'm here. can you hear me? >> yes. go ahead. you said that it took some time. certainly it did take some time for interviews to start. why did she not want to talk to investigators? >> caller: only she has the answers to her reasons. we're left to infer that she just was not comfortable. >> okay. joey, let me get to you, because he brings up a very good point. there was a gap. this is one of the findings of this report. there was a gap between the shooting and the interviews. and this is a big gap. apparently there were interviewed conducted in march, that was more than three months after the investigation had shifted from the police off

we have joey jackson and danny cevallos to puzzle out the two sides of this case.be defense. what is the main line coming at this officer? >> intent. the reality is that retaliation is never a defense to any crime. i think they're going to analyze all the circumstances leading up to it. you can make the argument that he shouldn't have run. you can make the argument there shouldn't have been a struggle. but you have to focus on, number one, why was he stopped? that's a violation. with regard to state of mind a taillight certainly does not constitute the death penalty. there's more than that. that's the incident itself. whenever an officer is in imminent fare forear for their life they are justified in protecting themselves. but when someone is running away, where's the threat here? it's also more than that. you look at the video. you see no imminent threat, eight shots become fired. four hit him in the back and one in the ear. there's no rendering of aid. and there's a telling of a story of a struggle, which we certainly do not see. >> rebuttal? >> i think defense a

. >> joey jackson hln legal analyst and patrice.ood to have you both. >>> breaking details surfacing in the capture of one of those escaped killers in northern new york. what we're learning about richard matt and his condition right before he was shot and killed by police. >>> the supreme court's historical same-sex marriage ruling not being followed in some places. a couple attempted to mary after 14 years together but they were turned away. hey pal? you ready? can you pick me up at 6:30? ah... (boy) i'm here! i'm here! (cop) too late. i was gone for five minutes! ugh! move it. you're killing me. you know what, dad? i'm good. (dad) it may be quite a while before he's ready, but our subaru legacy will be waiting for him. (vo) the longest-lasting midsize sedan in its class. the twenty-fifteen subaru legacy. it's not just a sedan. it's a subaru. so you're a small business expert from at&t? yeah, give me a problem and i've got the solution. well, we have 30 years of customer records. our cloud can keep them safe and accessible anywhere

let's bring in joey jackson.u. >> such a strange case. >> really is. >> supposedly mitchell has been cooperating with authorities. she has talked to them every day. she has not acquired a lawyer however. which i first interesting. >> that's problematic. she should immediately. she's in an interesting position. she could provide valuable information. how ironic would it be that a person who allegedly helped them escape could potentially find their whereabouts. did they access her cell phone? reports are they potentially did? did they through that access communicate with people who police are all over and speaking to the determine what were their plans, where are they going, where have they been. that could occur. i don't think she's in a good position but in a superior position. prosecutors and law enforcement are relying upon the information that she provide. to the extent she's in a lot of trouble -- and she really is -- that could be mitigated or lessened depending on the extent of her cooperation. >> she suppl

joining me to talk about the prosecution's case cnn legal analyst paul callan and legal analyst joey jacksone but you actually have a sound bite from him that played in open court about regrets and usually regrets because you regret you did something you shouldn't have, let me play that and talk about it. >> what brings tears to your eyes sometimes? >> just regrets. >> regrets? can you tell me a little more? >> usually it's before i go to sleep. regrets about? >> about the shooting. >> regrets. regrets about the shooting. do you need more than that? >> according to the prosecutors you certainly don't. when you put that together, because that's testimony, right, we often talk about whether the defendant will testify, he's testifying in court and really being cross examined by the psychiatrist, so what you do is you match up his testimony, he seems consistent, he seems logical, he seems lucid, he seems expressive and look at all the plotting, premeditation he did, and they say you knew what you were doing, and you knew it was wrong. >> paul callan, if you don't think that's enough how about th

. >> thanks very much joey jackson, jamel beauy.up much more on the breaking news the emotional court hearing as victims' relatives speak directly powerfully to the charleston church gunman and some of them offer forgiveness. stay with us. meet the world's newest energy superpower. surprised? in fact, america is now the world's number one natural gas producer... and we could soon become number one in oil. because hydraulic fracturing technology is safely recovering lots more oil and natural gas. supporting millions of new jobs. billions in tax revenue... and a new century of american energy security. the new energy superpower? it's red, white and blue. log on to learn more. ♪ color is a beautiful thing, i know, i know... ♪ ♪ color is a beautiful thing, i know, oh yes i know... ♪ ♪color is the i ching ching for sure ding dang... ♪ ♪ color is a beautiful thing, i know, i know. ♪ if you feel it, you can find it. all new color by behr. exclusively at the home depot. doesn't it seem like the wireless world today could use a smile? at cri

what we can believe from this person i want to bring in hln legal analyst and defense attorney joey jackson and cnn legal analyst and defense attorney danny cevallos. clearly the details are important because there are two people whose cases depend on what these facts and witness and evidence patterns will be. >> no doubt. >> how can you believe a man like this? >> that's the million-dollar question. there's a couple things that are very important. the one thing is to get him to speak, of course, and you want him to speak. he's in stable condition so therefore you want that to occur. the other thing is to vet every single thick this person tells you because he's not the most honorable individual in the world based upon what he does. so i think what they're going do is investigators will speak to him but vet the story thoroughly. if he has vendettas against corrections officer, what is not to prevent him from saying something which is not true. so just vet what he tells you to make sure the information is reliable. >> he's sitting in a hospital bed presumably chained pretty darn good. more t

joey jackson, it's troubling, thank you. appreciate the insight. thank you for watching. my colleague wolf blitzer takes it from here. >> hello, i'm wolf blitzer. it's 1:00 in washington 6:00 p.m. in london 7:00 p.m. in rome 8:00 p.m. in moscow. wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us. >>> 12 days on the run, 16 square miles, more than 10,000 acres searched 1400 leads followed up but still two escaped murderers here in the united states have managed to elude authorities. at a news conference just a little while ago, police announced they are expanding their search for these two convicted killers. >> today the search for escaped inmates richard matt and david sweat will expand and shift to other areas surrounding dannemora. personnel are being redeployed to other areas based on information gathered during the investigation. people in the region should expect to see law enfoorsment in their community as the search expands. >> meanwhile, new york state police have now released artist renditions. this is what richard matt and david swea

for the legal view, i want to bring if hln legal analyst and defense attorney joey jackson and criminal defense attorney midwin charles. joey, have at her. how extensive can that prosecution get for someone who may have had a minor role? >> it could get very extensive. let's be clear about it. what you want to do is deter anyone in the future. there's a couple things at stake here. the first is to bring these two back to justice so that they don't engage in any crimes. they're not nice guys. one shot a sheriff's deputy, the other dismembered their boss, the former boss who was elderly and so what you want to do is you want to send a message out there that anyone who even considers assisting people behind bars to get out, you're going to be held accountable. and the law makes you accountable. why? it's a d felony, punishable by up to seven years in jail and it says if you introduce contraband into a facility -- which is anything not allowed in a facility but particularly here where it's dangerous contraband that can help people escape -- you know what? you have to suffer the consequences

so let's marinade on this with richard freeman and trial attorney joey jackson, hln analyst and criminalse attorney. gentlemen, listen i was recently at a high school congratulation a couple weeks ago, and i'm still here. i may not have been the one hooting and hollering, had to be on the stage. >> two weeks here. may still get a warrant. >> come on. jailtime for this? >> outrageous. >> yeah. >> the reality is this. there are certain laws created, when you talk about the first amendment, brooke there's reasons you want people to be quiet but those stem upon your individual rights versus someone else. right? being tetedetrimental to someone else. we know you can't yell "fire!" in a theater, others may be impacted. can't yell "bomb!" but something like this saying congratulations! all of a sudden you know not literally but figuratively carted off to jail it's problematic, i don't think it's constitutional and don't think it will stand. >> i disagree. the statute is constitutional but totally misapplied here. the conduct statutes have been in the country for decades and decades. they've bee

assistant director fomtom fuentes, casey jordan, and legal analyst and criminal defense attorney joey jacksonkilled richard matt. when it comes to david sweat, if they are able to take him alive, what does that mean for joyce mitchell the seamstress who allegedly helped them get out? is this someone who would testify against her? >> well i don't necessarily think so. good afternoon, poppy. the reality is this. the prosecutors are going to have to balance whether or not the current charges are justified enough or whether they want to upgrade them in some way. in doing that remember not only as it relates to joyce mitchell but as it relates to mr. palmer as well who's also been charged, they're going to have to look at a few things. number one, there was the other inmate has been killed. so far, thank goodness, no other member of the public you know, has been hurt. number two, punishment and what's appropriate punishment in this case. number three. deterrents and what level of deterrence does this send to joyce mitchell and other people in a facility that would assist in anybody's escape. they'

time to bring in my lawyer, cnn legal analyst danny cevallos and hln legal analyst joey jackson.tor's facts but we haven't heard from anybody on the defense side of things yet. can you stomach a defense when you hear little children aged three and four had their skulls smashed, danny? >> you have to. that's our job. our job is to take a horrible set of facts and challenge the prosecution to prove each and element of their case beyond a reasonable doubt. and the reason that we're hearing so much about the prosecution ice case right now is that we're really only at the preliminary hearing stage. that's when the prosecution has to make out their case, not beyond a reasonable doubt but to the lesser standard of probable cause. which means that the prosecution's challenge is to show as much of their hand strategically but just enough to have the case held over without showing too much and signaling too much information to the defense. >> don't give away the farm, right? >> although certainly as defense attorneys we try to get the farm. and that means we're going to ask questions durin