there's much more open can conversation about -- open conversation about race in johannesburg or capetownor durbin or if you're in a township outside johannesburg, then we have, we tend to have two conversations going on; one in our heads and then what's actually being said. and there's a big gap in that conversation. i don't think that's true at least in the circles of young people that i've been traveling in in south africa. so i think those two things are big. and then maybe the third thing that's important to say is that memorialized in the south african constitution is a commitment to social and economic justice, to nonracialism, to nonbe sexism -- nonsexism, to picking sexual orientation as protected as any other category and to social justice and egalitarianism. so there's a way in which at least those goals as far as the country, certainly, and the party certainly falls short of those goals, but at least those goals are codified and understood as the core values of the country. >> and i think we'd like to think that those are the core values here. but as you say, their not often -

whether it was in the other places, in the urban dwellings of johannesburg or capetown. he was able to speak to the high and the low. to let them know it was not just for a few but for all. and did he so not looking out for anything for himself but sharing with others. he is a moral for us, the likes of which we will have a very difficult time seeing a replacement any time soon. >> a lot of people are too young to remember the bitter debate in the 1990s about how to deal with south africa. how to try to stop the oppressive and racist apartheid regime. those debates were very vigorous. looking back on them now. a reporter told me this evening that the clerk maintains to this day, the sanctions kept apartheid in place longer. that's not my statement. self serving. >> 20 years of street action, divestment of plans, organized labor, the plan of the universities. they set in and faced jail in defiance and then for a whole year, he went to jail every day for a year. and finally, finally one day congressman asked for a voice vote. the u.s. government declaring sanctions was the