john adams intends to crown john quincey as his heir opponent. they are bringing prostitutes over if leelected. they regard any strong projection of federal power as monarchy. the republican position of madison and jefferson is all domestic policy is the function of the states. no domestic policy can be made by the federal government. the federal government is a foreign government. >> right. they can make foreign policy. but that's it. and why doels they want to argue that. ellis says slavery. once you acknowledge that the federal government has power to make domestic policy which includes internal infrastructure and all that stuff and trade, once you admit that principle, then slavery goes on to the agenda. and they stum thap at all stump that at all costs. >> well, okay. but why? why do they differ from their neighbors? >> well, originally the answer is because they experienced the revolution together as a failure of state sovereignty. they experienced the revolution as a place where the states refused to provide money and men and the numbers allowed. they experienced valley forth together as a near death experience in both of them were there. i think marshal was a young guy that is the leading high jumper or something like that. he's a great man. >> silver heels. >> that's right. but both of them believed that the constitutional settlement of 1787-88 fundamentally revised the principles of '76. we -- the principles of '76 as jefferson saw them was liberation, no government. if you read -- read the declaration of independence. what good thing does it have to say about government? nothing. everything that government does is bad. that was a wonderful idea to use against the brits. but once you try to run your own country, and to what extent is the intention of the revolution to create a nation state. there are a lot of people they wept together as a series of states. and now that we defeated, we'll go our separate ways. to some extent jefferson believes that. >> u.s. hamilton said whether he would be elected or not and hamilton is swallowing the bitter pill and said better this guy than aaron bird. he said he'll probably want to come into a good estate. eventually with the constitution, he takes more position. sow violates all this principles in that context. but what am i trying to say? i'm rambling perhaps here. >> starting with war and then continuing from that, there were those in the south and in virginia who did not draw these agrarian -- >> but they've become isolated. i think both washington and marshal are regarded as trojan horses within virginia. and the fact that marshal is chief justice from 1800 to 1835, he's like that's one of the most amazing things to me. think about this. like there are three republican presidents, jefferson, madison, and monroe. all serving eight-year terms. >> that means for 24 years, all appointments to the supreme court are being made by people who believe in state's rights. they go in to the marshal court and something happens to them. i think it's the madira that he serves at dinner. but they all get converted. and it's like the reason that jefferson says if you ever have a conversation with marshal, you cannot respond. you must keep quiet. whatever you say, he will take it and he will twist it. he has the term twistification. >> he says if jefferson asks you is the sunshining, you must say i don't know. >> i don't know. >> as if you said yes or no, he'd like get marchberry versus madison out of that. >> that's right. when marshal died, they did an autopsy and he had a liver three time the size of the largest liver ever seen. so i think it was madira, myself. but partly was marshal's own personality and his -- the fact is marshal probably was one of the greatest of the founders. he's a little late. but he can can't know it in the way that we can with adams and jefferson because so much of the correspondence has been destroyed. but he took care of his wife poly. i mean, boy, the full story on this guy. and one other thing happened is the legal scholar get ahold of him. there is this conversation about mccullock versus maryland. the human story. think about marshal. marshal was the equivalent of the special forces leader in the american revolution. he had like three companies shot out from under him. i mean he's a hero. a complete hero. and then becomes the greatest chief justice in america, you know, the greatest chief justice in american history. and not -- maybe not quite by accident. but kind of a spur of the moment. >> probably the greatest thing that adam ever did. after the revolution itself, i mean i think adams' greatest moment is '75 and '76. but like in his presidency, that's the greatest thing he did. >> what is the line he says to him? he's the secretary of state at that point. >> yes, marshal is secretary of the state under adams. i forget. >> but he's like -- he's like marshal is only in office on some other business and adams is saying well i got to pick a chief justice. i think i'll pick you. >> the horrible thing that come to mind is george bush is he might be his vice-presidential candidate. i don't think that's a proper analogy. >> let's take a few questions. now do we have -- what's the setup? i guess we have a mike. there is a question -- a question there. >> just when i was going to say we should do that, too. perfect timing. >> how did so many of the founder, particularly the virginia air stockcy live so lavishly buying great books, great wine, people, building mansions with no income, assets or property? they're losing money everywhere and never getting a claim from a creditor calling a debt. >> madison and monroe and some of lesser ways, they're not ostentatious. they thought of wealth in terms of land rather than money. if they owned a lot of land, they thought they were wealthy. they never understood capitalism. i mean that. he understood that. he said it is like a shylock. you know, an accountant. a mere accountant. jefferson carries it to an extreme though. the wine bill during the time he's president is greater than his salary. and when jefferson would move to a new place in paris or philadelphia, he wouldn't just rent a place, he would renovate it. it's like he would buy it and -- it was this extraordinary. he never thought about it. so when debt hits him later, very late in his life, he's like -- and i mean you know, really late. like 7 o years old. he's like oh, my god. i didn't know this. and it's like, duh! but it's genuine. it's genuine. he's not being, you know, he really didn't get it. to some extent, see, what i think is that virginia would have been better off if it had ended slavery in the 18th century, better off economically. i told that you, you know, only a small portion of the slave population is actually working. the slave economy doesn't work once the toeb econobacco econom gone. they would have been better off going the direction of pennsylvania. >> and parts of the state, i gather, did that. >> did. washington tried to lead it. yeah, and washington tried to lead that. but you need a qualified psychiatrist to answer your question. >> and then maybe sanguine creditors are also part of the answer. >> a question? yes, right here. >> there is a guy over there. >> aaron bird had vice-presidency, you know, perhaps almost president was in the mix of all of them. but we don't hear anything that he seems to have -- does he seem to not have affected anything despite his position and his -- >> he killed my guy. >> yeah. >> other than that. >> you know, there is this great letter. he has a daughter. she is one of best educated women in the united states. and his attitude towards women is fascinating in several respects. but he really makes -- he treats his daughter in educational term as if she were a male. but he writes her a letter the night before he goes to the door and he says, here are the names of my mistresses. tell them i will miss them if i die. it's like -- >> i own -- >> if washington transcends the times in the generation and sort of becomes the, you know, the republican king and sort of levitates, borough is beneath it all. and pops up wherever he thinks the best chance will be. i mean we really don't know what berr'sons were in the westment he wants to make himself some kind of emperor out there. he is the epitome of the unvirtuous leader. burr is the guy most comfortable in contemporary american politics. he is the only guy that can survive the current campaign system. >> well, and the insight i had to burr which i thought was like a flair going off, it was a book that came out in 1910 and the author spoke to an old man who had known burr when he was very young and when burr was very bu old. because burr dies in 1836, i think. so it works out. and the author says everybody said aaron burr was charming, what did that mean? you met him, what was his charm? >> a and it was the man said it was the way he listened. he listened to you as if what you were saying was more important to him than it was to you. i read thatnd and i thought, that's it, that explains burr conspiracy, which nobody has been able to figure out what his agenda was. he didn't have one. he was vamping, he was going around, everybody he knew, a bunch of malcontents, a lot of them and they talk and talk and he listens and they say, he's my guy. he's going to make it happen. >> and he's kind of like vamping and maybe this will work and maybe that will work and you know, who knows what he's thinking? i don't think he knew what was he was thinking either, but he listened. so let's see, another question, back there. >> there's a -- there's a whole bunch of burr people that loved burr. you know, there's like burr societies and stuff like that. and they came -- >> there is a constituency, there is a new book by a woman at the university of tulsa on burr that came out a couple of months ago. so he's not forgotten and probably one of the best writers in american history was written on burke. >> i wonder if you can elaborate a little bit on how jefferson went from his principles to his actions as president. >> how jefferson went from his principles to his actions as president. in a flicker of an eye. it's like -- now, he knew what he was doing and he was worried about it. he knew that he was violating hiss principles and he had severe reservations about him, and he talked to both madison, the secretary of state and gallup, the secretary of treasury, both of them were really smart guys. he said i don't know if i can do this, this is the louisiana purchase, it violates all our principles, it not only violates the constitutional principal, but it's also going to increase the debt. and jefferson's whole agenda as president is to reduce the debt. this horrible thing that hamilton has built up. and they say to him, look, you can have your principles, but if you decide on insisting that there be a constitutional amendment passed to justify this, napoleon is going to change his mind and we won't get the louisiana territory. so you have to choose between your principles, and the interest of posterity. that was never a difficult choice for jefferson. and -- but notice, notice, jefferson never puts the louisiana purchase on his tombstone. he doesn't put the presidency on his tombstone, in which the purchase is the major thing. because he knows that there are problems there. he knows that he set a precedent there that is going to come back to haunt him and it does and it's a crisis because basically, why do we go to war in 1861? we don't go to war over the issue of slavery in the south, we go to war over the issue of slavery in the territories. okay? and so that has sewn the seed of this conflict, and he knows that. although really people misunderstood that phrase too, when jefferson talks about the fire bell in the night, he's not talking about slavery, he's talking about the discussion of slavery. the very fact that we're talking about this and thinking in a struggling way about it. he wants everybody to shut up, leave it alone, a code of silence kind of thing. what is the word that they use in the army about gays, don't ask, don't tell? >> don't ask, don't tell. >> next question. >> there's a guy in the back there. the guy that's standing up through all this has got to be rewarded somehow. >> dr. ellis, i always enjoyed your books. where did the scism occur? >> nay are collaborators in 1778. in fact hamilton presumes that madison is going to be supportive of his financial plan. because madison in the convention, madison wants a federal veto for all state legislation. that's a huge thing. he's not going to get it, he doesn't get it, but he wants to end the sovereignty of the states all together in the convention. and the compromise that results isn't to his liking. in some sense, he's even more of a federalist at that stage than hamilton, so that it's tough to make that case. two things happened at the same time and you can't separate them to figure out what's the -- what's the most effective causal occasion. one is jefferson comes back from paris. and jefferson enters the government as secretary of state and madison becomes jefferson's accolade and worships the ground he walks on and see the sub alter of jefferson. and no longer is the sovereign voice of himself. the second thing that happens is the passions of what we referred -- richard and i were talking about, the hamilton financial plan. and all of a sudden, he regards this new federal government as something that is not compatible with virginia's interests. either economically or in terms of slavery. and like, oh, my god. and he's serving in the house of representatives so that his constituency is telling him that they oppose all these things. but it's breathtakingly quick. i mean there are all these people, i mean there's a young woman out here that's trying to get a monument devoted to madison. haley, there you are. there you go. and here or in washington -- >> in washington. >> in washington. and it's certainly justified, but the people that loved madison the most don't understand him. madison changes positions three or four times in his life. and politically, madison is the guy who -- if god were in the details, madison would be there to greet him upon arrival. madison is a nose counter and -- now if you want to really make the most brilliant case for madison and it's possible, he understands the argumentative context that the constitution has created. once the seesaw starts to go too far one way, he'll jump on the other side until he's committed to a form of balance. that's the best case you can make for him. but the worst case is, man, this guy is like, you know, i'm on your -- i'm your lawyer, i will defend you. now i'm the lawyer of the other guy and i will defend him. it's like a lawyer and a client. and he sees his constituency as a 1787 as america and in 1790 is virginia. >> and he's the one guy on the first string of the founders who has not had a big book. and i think that's because of the inherent difficulty of doing such a thing. >> i read his stuff for six months last year. ask me, you ask me when i was talking about doing something on madison. and he's tough to read. he's tough to read. his sentence is -- the sin tax of his sentences are serpentine, and they double back on each other in a way that is very politically effective. because it's like what is he saying? on the other hand, it's like who he saying? and especially with -- like, you know, he's very much in favor of federal sovereignty, he's very much opposed to it, throughout the '90s and writes in the virginia resolution, the strongest statement of state sovereignty there. when you get to the nullification crisis in 1830-32, he jumps the other way. he says no, that's not what we intended. >> so are you going to do a this book? >> no. i'm going to let hadley take care of madison and i'm going to write another book, first family, abigail and john.