cupp and john avalon, friend, there is a republican presidential debate scheduled one week from today i'd like to talk about this with you, john, here and s.e. over here. s.e. cupp over there, and i want to role play. i'm going to play the role conventional wisdom. john, i would like you to play john avalon and s.e., i would like you to play s.e. cupp. >> duly noted. me, donald trump should not go to this first debate one week from today. he is the front-runner in his campaign. he has nothing to gain by showing up. john avalon? >> oh, conventional wisdom. when won't you be wrong? that's exactly what political consultants would say. don't debate. it can only bring you down. i would argue that these times are not normal and donald trump should go and be the leader of his party, right? he's going to go down to georgia. he will dominate the cycle and go there and answer your critics in person. don't let them punch up on a disembodied donald trump. this is an argument matt lewis said persuasively and particularly political consultants and it is incumbent to have a clear contrast and take a

all right, john avalon, has kamala harris in your view, because you've also seen the criticism of her, do they have a lane here? >> i think there is a legitimate criticism to be made of kamala harris in terms of anonymous political town that's failed to -- broader popularity. it'll be difficult to do on issues like immigration. the credible things you can point out that do not have to do with the undercurrent of race and gender, which is a subtext and all of these attacks early on, things like very high staff turnover in all of her positions, that is a legitimate concern. the biden team is putting her foot forward in this campaign apparently in issues that resonate with the -- . the problem is, moderate independent voters, she's underwater compared to the president, so it on a surprise to see republicans going after her because it's a proxy. biden's difficult to demonize, kamala harris is something that can resonate with folks both on the race and gender level and other questions. >> let's take a look at a couple of polls here. let's pull the first one up that shows the popularity amo

and john avalon. first, 40-plus pages, what do they say? >> well, to your point, i mean, this is the first time that the government is trying to hold donald trump accountable for what happened around the 2020 election. and around january 6th. they point out that the peaceful transfer of power went smoothly in this country for 130 years until donald trump. they say he lost the 2020 election, he knew he lost the 20 election, and he tried to stay in power anyway. special counsel jack smith criminally charging former president donald trump for his attempts to overturn the 2020 election. and undermine the peaceful transfer of power. >> an indictment was unsealed charging donald j. trump for conspiring to defraud the united states, disenfrom shiez voters. >> reporter: federal prosecutors write, the defendant spread lies that there had been outcome determine native fraud and that he won. these claims were false. this morning, we're getting our first sense of trump's defense. >> focusing on the fact that what we have now is an administration that h

joining us now is cnn political commentator and host of firing line margaret hoover and john avalon and a bad thing, right? >> it depends on who you ask. doesn't it? look, it is definitely a bad thing. sorry to be cheeky about it. but sometimes we have to do that to make ourselves feel better at night. the truth is, it depends on who you ask. if you're a self-identified maga republican primary voter, in a red state, you're more likely to give money to donald trump when you see that mug shot because you feel that he is your guy and he's being vilified by the system, by a politicized department of justice and the like. if you are a democrat who primaries in the republican primary in new hampshire, you're probably more likely to primary for a republican who is not donald trump and help prevent donald trump from getting the republican nomination. >> or an independent. >> and it depends on where you are. and if you're donald trump and in a closed republican prooimar it helps him. but if your donald trump in an open primary, it doesn't help him. >> that is a good point. and trump could brag a