so we shouldn't underestimate that for many, many years, john borghetti was the face of virgin, and johngood airline. he did not build a good enough business. and i think it's because of not building a good enough business that he's faced this criticism. people expect those things to go hand-in-hand and life is much easier if they do. john thomas: when i arrived at the airline, a lot of frontline staff said, "look, can we, can we please stop trying to be like qantas?" because you never gonna-- qantas is a great airline. you're never going to beat qantas at qant's game. michael brissenden: john thomas was virgin's group executive. john thomas: whilst it was great to move up-market into a full-service carrier, we should have done it in a uniquely virgin australia way, rather than necessarily trying to copy qantas toe for toe. michael brissenden: john borghetti left in march 2019. elizabeth: in the end, a ceo runs the operations of a company and not a board. and what the board can do, if they don't like the way the ceo is running the company, is to change the ceo. and that's eventually what