of course, will davis was a state party chairman who had been appointed by john conley was still the party chairman. so if they listened to this on the phone, and they realized what we're trying to do, and their major effort is to try to ensure the nomination of the weakest democratic candidate against nixon, which i think everybody conceded would be mcgovern that year, they certainly would have acted. >> so, luke, have you got all this straight? this is what spencer oliver believes happened. he was calling up all of these state chairman, getting their numbers on the delegates. he believes the nixon folks realized there was this plan to stop mcgovern, was going to stop mcgovern in the state of texas and lo and behold, what spencer oliver believes to this day is that nixon, getting this information, didn't tell former governor john conley at the time, still a democrat, who eventually, of course, switches parties. says, hey, you've got to guarantee that mcgovern gets some delegates at the texas state democratic convention. so quite the -- >> there was a wild, unknown part of this large

>> well, he was told that, as i understand, by john conley, his secretary of treasury, and had he done might have been very different. it was very much at the last minute that i inserted that in my testimony, that i thought i had been taped. that would be the bit of testimony that would result in the minority counsel saying dean thought he was taped, that probably isn't possible, and asking alex butterfield that question, and of course, the rest is history. >> and when you listen to the tapes, and there are many of us who listen to these tapes whenever they come out and also sometimes on c-span radio, they play them on weekends, and it's just completely shocking. one of them that was quoted this weekend, this is july 3rd, 1971, richard nixon, who had brought in, you know, henry kissinger, leonard -- >> bill safire. >> a host of jewish officials within his cabinet and on his white house staff. he says the government is full of jews. most jews are disloyal. you know what i mean. generally speaking, you can't trust them. they turn on you. was that the atmosphere inside the white house? >>