this is john delaney asking the questions of maryland. i personally think it will be good for the economy because of some of these people who start looking at rates differently. so a few things i would like to say. when the fed takes its initial step in raising the target for the federal funds rate, it's important to understand that that doesn't mean that there is some predetermined path back to historically normal rates. the notion that it should be -- >> but it's still -- >> it will be gradual. i mean, in general higher levels of interest rates, i think, do tend to make borrowing more expensive and discourage it, but it will occur in the context of a stronger economy, with higher income where people are doing better. it's not the only thing that affects investment decision or borrowing or spending decision, so i would not expect to see borrowing go down or lending go down when we raise rates modestly. >> you think it will encourage more borrow sng. >> often here, especially anecdotal evidence that i hear along the lines that you are sug